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Re: CHAT Graeca sine flexione (was: Greek plosives)

From:Isaac Penzev <isaacp@...>
Date:Saturday, February 4, 2006, 19:09
General remark: You are so stimulating! I had to take out my modern Greek
materials (Russian-G and G-R dictionaries, a conversation guide and a tiny
grammar sketch) to follow the thread!

Hanuman Zhang egrapse:

> on 2/3/06 8:03 PM, R A Brown at ray@CAROLANDRAY.PLUS.COM wrote: > > > I think that one of the fundamental things that would need to be decided > > in a "Graeca sine flexione" is whether the 'Graeca' is (essentially) > > ancient or modern. > > Oh why not a dogged, mongrel-mutt Greco-mix of both commonly recognizable > roots ancient and modern?
I expected it to be mostly ancient. ==================== R A Brown egrapsei:
> Isaac Penzev wrote: > > > > Ah, how lovely! May I play in this sandbox too? > > I assume it's open to everyone.
Poly kala! (will it be "poly kalo" in GSF?) Shall we distinguish between adj. and adv.? Maybe again, in Romance manner: "poly kalo-tropo"?
> > Non-euroclonic auxlangs may be fun too, if people do not occupy with > > proselytizing, but treat them as artlangs... > > They could be, but I don't think GSF is really non-euroclonic, but it > would not be of the overdone Romano-germanic type ;)
That's exactly what I meant: most euroclones are based on Romance or Germanic, and it's frustrating. [[[ in Reply to Andreas Johansson: > Isn't there a Slavic-derived auxlang too? Called Slovio or some such? - It is, and as a L1-Slavic speaker, I find it really really ugly. ]]]
> > What about number then, if there are no flexions? > > Indeed, 'sine flexione' means without any flexion. I believe, however, > Peano did allow a plural -s if plurality was not clear from context. > Glosa uses a preposited particle 'plu' (obviously from Latin). > > IMO Plurality should be left to context as in Chinese. If it necessary > to make it clear then words like 'oligo' (few) or 'poly' (many) can be > employed.
Agreed. Alternative variant - to step away from flextionlessness to oligoflectivity :))
> That's OK if people have no objections to: > - including sounds such as [T], [D] and [G];
We may come to a compromise: I would suggest modern vowels, but ancient consonants, except, probably, making ph [f], th [T] and ch [x]. At least this is the way people read Greek here, in Slavic lands ;)
> - having several different ways of spelling the same sound, in > particular having half a dozen or so ways of spelling /i/;
For me, etymological spelling is always helpful for figuring out the meaning of a new word!
> - allowing the same letter to have different pronunciations according to > context (e.g. upsilon which may be /i/ or /f/ or /v/ or simply combine > with |o| to give /u/.
It depends on what we decide on pronunciation. Things like _autos_ [af"tos] are not a stumbling block for me (again, maybe because we have the same phenomenon in Russian?)
> > Orthography - skip the aspirations and unify the stresses, and here you are
> Sounds like modern Greek.
That's what I meant.
> But what I meant was, using the Greek or Roman alphabet. Greek has been > written in the latter alphabet, particularly on Crete. It makes for a > more regular spelling than the modern & Byzantine orthography.
Roman alphabet may be an optional alternative. Just using the traditional transliteration. To mark stress with an acute (if necessary) - it can easily be typed from US-Int or Spanish keyboard layout.
> Philip Newton wrote: > [snip] > >>The *real* problem is - what shall we do with the Genitive??? > > > > > > Well, taking the lead from Romance, replace it with preposition + > > flexion-less form. I propose "apo" (from, away from). > > > > So "the teacher's book" would become "to biblio apo to daskalo". > > Exactly - no problem :)
Agreed. If we stick to the older forms, then "to biblio apo to didaskalo".
> Jim Henry wrote: > > Are we talking about just replacing the three stress marks > > with one (say, acute), or actually unifying the stress > > rule so stress marks need not be written because > > the stress is always predictable? > > Yes, I was not clear what Isaac meant, and rather fancied he meant the > latter.
I meant the Modern Greek approach.
> > We need to think about what prepositions will replace > > various uses of the plain dative as well. "eis" could work > > for some of them. > > Too late!! The Greeks have already done this themselves several > centuries ago ;) > > There is no dative in modern Greek and, yes, they have employed "es/eis" > for some its uses, except that in the modern language the preposition > has become 'se'.
This is THE way :)) ======== Too much to comment after the whole day of conversation. What shall we do with the verbs, then?? Anyway, it is real fun! Sas eucharisto poly! -- Isaac Penzev aka Yitzik


R A Brown <ray@...>