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Re: Slovanik, my new romlang

From:Thomas R. Wier <trwier@...>
Date:Tuesday, July 30, 2002, 14:19
Quoting Jan van Steenbergen <ijzeren_jan@...>:

> --- "Thomas R. Wier" wrote: > > > > Historical plausibility? > > > We all know, that the Slavs have never even been near the borders of > the > > > Roman Empire; > > > > Not so: the Crimea was an Imperial vassal state for centuries, > > all the way well into the Byzantine period. It is almost certain > > that slavic tribes also inhabited parts of the Empire itself, > > although not in great numbers until well after Constantine the > > Great. > > That's interesting! Do you know where exactly? Maybe that could help me > finding a more exact location for my Slavo-Romans.
(See below)
> > According to Mallory, who quotes the Ukrainian archaeologist > > Vladimir Baran, the geographical center of the extensive Slavic > > "urheimat" was considerably to the south and east of Poland, > > somewhere in the western Ukraine, although it is true that Slavs > > (more specifically: Balts) inhabited the region immediately to > > the east of Oder. > > Perhaps. I'm not an expert in this field. About which period is he > speaking?
Actually, he himself did not make that claim; I was extrapolating that from his claim. He was referring specifically to the "historically attested peoples of the sixth to seventh centuries AD and assigns them to the Prague-Penkov-Kolochina complex that inhabited a very broad area from the Elbe on the West to the Dnieper on the East" (_In Search of the Indo-Europeans_, 78). I should probably clarify that there is essentially no concensus on exactly where the Slavic Urheimat should be located, although there is broad agreement on such claims as they must have existed near the Balts for a protracted length of time. (This of course begs the question of the original extent of Baltic occupation, which most believe was far more extensive in this period than today.) But getting back to your question, other scholars claim that the Slavs existed much further South. The Chernyakovo Culture, which encompassed most of modern day Ukraine, Moldova, and Romania is claimed by some to have been inhabited by Slavs, Goths and Iranian speaking peoples (some of the latter of which still exist there!), and if so, that would perhaps place some of them inside the boundaries of the Empire as established by Trajan. But who exactly believes this typically depends on which country you're working in, as Germans will say that this area was, at least by the reign of the Emperor Marcus Aurelius, almost totally Germanified by the likes of the Quadi and Marcomanni invasions, while others will say (probably) that they Quadi and Marcomanni settled further afield, perhaps in the Crimea where there were Gothic speakers as late as the 16th century.
> Please note that some Ukrainian scientists, notably historians of the > nationalist school, have the awful habit of politicizing their field by > obstinately viewing Ukraine as if it were the centre of everything, > especially the Slavic world, Christianity, Europe, Western civilization, > or simply the whole world.
Oh, no doubt. I will be the first to admit that in many countries nationalism wins out over science. As I said, however, he did not actually make the claim.
> > > Diphthongs > > > /ae/ [Aj] > > > /oe/ [Oj], perhaps [jev] > > > > Any particular reason in having /e/ be the off-glide? > > To be honest, I don't know when (and where) the pronunciation of > Latin /ae/ shifted from [aj] to [e].
Well, my question was more: why do you claim that the underlying representation is /ae/ (not the spelling <ae>), which is only realized as [ai]?
> > > /p/ before short /e/ for /i/ > [p'] (= [p_j]) > > > > I was a little confused about this for a moment, because ['] > > usually signifies glottalization on a preceding obstruent. > > I suppose as one learns the shorthand, though, it's not a > > bad thing. > > This is how I understood it from the X-SAMPA home page: that ' and _j are > synonyms.
That's fine -- but I don't use X-SAMPA, and I find this particular feature inadequate.
> Thank you for your feedback,
Any time. :) ========================================================================= Thomas Wier Dept. of Linguistics "Nihil magis praestandum est quam ne pecorum ritu University of Chicago sequamur antecedentium gregem, pergentes non qua 1010 E. 59th Street eundum est, sed qua itur." -- Seneca Chicago, IL 60637


Jan van Steenbergen <ijzeren_jan@...>