Re: OT: Anthroponymics

--- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Henrik Theiling <theiling@A...> wrote:
> Up to now, I don't have any conculture at all, but I should at least
> think about the order of names in my languages, I think.
>
> Anyway, if I were to invent a system, I'd be using something like in
> Latin, namely ordinals, plus a metronym system for women and a
> patronym system for men plus a free choice of name at the age of,
> say, 18 (or 21 in some countries. :-P).
>
> E.g. for the first child of a man called 'Marcus', if that child is
> a boy:
>
>     Primus Marci
>
> (I simply adopted Latin case endings here to show the point.  This'd
> have to be translated into the corresponding conlang.  Maybe in
> Mandarin:
>
>     Markus de di4 yi1
>
> or Japanese:
>     Markus no ichiban
>
> or Western Palatinian:
>     Markus sei Erschder
> )
>
> Then come 'Secundus Marci', 'Tertius Marci', etc.
>
> The family internal name would simply be
> 'Primus'/'Di4yi1'/'Ichiban'/'Erschder'...
>
> And for the first child of a woman called 'Diana', if that child is
> a girl:
>
>     Prima Dianae
>
> You could be arbitrarily specific:
>
>     Prima Dianae tertiae Ernae secundae Blahblae...
I like that.

> :-)
>
> Then, at an appropriate age, there would be a large party on the
> climax of which Primus Marci will declare that from now on, he'd be
> called 'Bob'.  Then he'd just be called 'Bob' instead of 'Primus
> Marci' and his male children'd be called
>
>    Primus Bobis   (primi Marci ...)
>    Secundis Bobis (primi Marci ...)
>    ...
>
> No?
>
> If couples like to, they could add another reference to their
> spouse:
>
>    Sum Bob primae Dianae primi Marci.
>
> However, for gay couples or in languages where male and female names
> are indistinguishable (this'd be my option for a conlang anyway, as
> it also takes away one problem of adopted children's names of gay
> couples or singles), this system would become ambiguous as the
> spouse could be taken to be the father (or mother).  Hmm.
>
> One solution would be that the spouse may only be mentioned if a
> single name was already chosen.  But this'd exclude
> mariage/coupling/spousing under 18 (or 21), or at least, mentioning
> the spouse for those people.  Anyway, let's assume 'Prima Dianae'
> choose 'Linda' as her personal name, then:
>
>    Sum Bob Lindae (primae Dianae ...) (primi Marci ...).
>
> And Linda'd say:
>
>    Sum Lindae Bobis (primi Marci ...) (primae Dianae ...).
>
> For languages that don't distinguish male and female names and for
> adopted children of gay couples, this'd still be ambiguous and some
> solution needs to be found.  Maybe a simple one:
>
>    Sum Bob Lindae ((filiae) primae Dianae ...)
>                   (filius primi Marci ...).
> And
>    Sum Lindae Bobis ((filii) primi Marci ...)
>                     (filia primae Dianae ...).
>
> Comments? :-)
I still like it.

> I love numbers, BTW, but I also like individualism, so everyone
> should choose their own name.  This also frees parents from the
> burden of coming up with names for their children.
*here*, the child has not always managed to fill in the blank left by
the parents.

J B Jones and Harry S Truman, not to mention my own grand-uncle W D
McKenzie, were intended by their parents to choose a name to go with
their initials -- but, they never did.

Gatewood, whom I also mentioned, was also intended to pick his own
name; his parents didn't even give him an initial as a "hint".  He
took the responsibility seriously, and seriously considered several
possible personal names for himself; but he never actually committed
himself to one before he died.

In a way it makes sense for a person to be given an agnomen or
cognomen after growing-up some; between 12 y/o and 21 y/o, e.g.
I'm not sure it's such a great idea to have that choice always belong
to the name-ee; nor to have it always belong to others.  If I had
several concultures, instead of less-than-one, I'd have one adopt
each practice.

>
> **Henrik
>
> PS: We could have a discussion about whether to count girls and boys
>     separately or to count children.  In some languages, this'd
>     probably change the names:
>
>         Markus sei Erschder
>         Markus sei Erschdes
>
>     (The second name could also refer to 'second girl' in Western
>     Palatinian, however, but not to 'second boy').
>
>     I'd vote for counting children, since then it's easier if both
>     partners are called the same and the language does not
>     distinguish gender on ordinals.
Because I counted 15 name-elements, not including agnomina given
by "godparents", I didn't mention the following in my first answer to
Carsten's ObConlang question.

In my conculture (when I have one) I had until recently been
intending that the birth-order elements of the personal names be six-
part.

a) Which child of this father?
b) Which child of this mother?
c) Which child of this couple?
d) Which child-of-this-gender of this father?
e) Which child-of-this-gender of this mother?
f) Which child-of-this-gender of this couple?

(It would be quite unlikely for any of these ordinals to get
beyond "seventh", since, in general, if a couple marry at the average
age for doing so, both live an average lifespan, and are living
together without contraception from the time they are married until
the time one of them dies, they will have an average of six or seven
children.

Naturally as civilization advances contraception will become more
common; and, in primitive times, it will take quite good luck on the
part of the couple-as-a-unit for /both/ of them to have average luck
individually, and also not to be separated.)

This system both counts sons separately from daughters, and counts
sons along with daughters.  Furthermore it both counts full-siblings
separately, all agnate half-siblings together, and all uterine
half-siblings together.  Since it will be quite common, in the
earlier part of the conculture's "history", for a "maiden (?)" boy to
marry a widowed mother, and for a maiden girl to marry a widower who
has children, this part of the system will cause at least two of the
assigned ordinals to differ for about half of the children born,
until peace and absence-of-epidemic breaks out.