Re: German "ch" (was: Con-Alphabets & Real Languages)

On 31 Dec 01, at 15:25, laokou wrote:

> [tS] for the English (Chips, checken)
Though a lot of speakers assimilate that to just [S] word-initially
(many Germans have trouble differentiating between "chips" and "ships"
when learning English, too, in my experience; initial [tS] is rather
foreign to German).

> (and Spanish? (Chile)).
[Ci:l@] for me.

> But even then, I'm not quite right. [C] occurs in "Chemie" and its
> derivatives, "China" and its derivatives,
Though those two words start with [k] for some people (but not in
standard German AFAIK).

> and "Chirurgie" and its derivatives. At first blush, I thought "i"
> and "e" were evoking palatalization (and I still imagine that's part
> of what's going on),
I think so, too. After all, the previous sound determines whether <ch>
is [C] (after front vowels) or [x] (after back vowels), so it would
make sense for the following vowel to influence the sound as well.
(That's also what makes the <ch> in <Frauchen> be pronounced [C],
despite the <au> preceding it... the <e> afterwards, in this fixed
suffix, determines the pronunciation).

> but "Chef", "Chiffre", and "Chicorée" are marked with [S]. Dunno what
> that's about.
Word origin, I imagine. Your first examples are from Greek (Chemie,
Chirurgie), the later ones from French.

> Anyway, a four-way split. [x], to the best of my knowledge, does not
> occur initially.
Apparently not (save in loanwords such as "Chasidim" and "Chutzpe").
Interestingly, "Charisma" has initial [C] according to the Duden,
despite the back [a] following it (I pronounce it with [k], however).

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>