Re: THEORY: Word Order In Phrases

Jeff Jones writes:
 > I have a question about word order in Natlangs. How common is the order
 >
 > Noun  Adjectives  Quantifier  Determiner
 >
 > where Quantifier includes exact and approximate numbers and fractions as
 > well as logical quantifiers, and Determiner includes things like definite
 > articles?
 >
 > It seems odd to me, but is what I came up with in avoiding ambiguity (in
 > relation to other aspects of a syntax I'm working on). I notice that it's
 > the reverse order of English (e.g. "the 3 hungry wolves").
 >
 > I have another question: is there any theoretical reason why or why not
 > (depending on the answer to the first question).
 >
 > Thanks, I hope
 >
 > Jeff J.
 >

I remember reading something about this in the old archives...
<time passes>
Here we are... on Mon, 26 Apr 93 23:14:44 -0400 lojbab posted part 4
of a summary of a discussion of the complexity of Esperanto syntax,
held mainly on sci.lang.
The participants in this section are denoted as follows:

MR:  From: markrose@spss.com (Mark Rosenfelder)
DH:  From: donh@netcom.com (Donald J. Harlow)
ID:  From: iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski)

The last paragraph here is what's relevant - the stuff on Esperanto is
provided merely for context.

>  MR2:
>  * Adjective order.  One can say "granda rugha libro" 'big red book', or
>  "tri blindaj musoj" 'three blind mice', but surely "rugha granda libro"
>  or "blindaj tri musoj" sound odd.
>
>   DH2:
>   An interesting point.  "Rugha granda libro" does not sound odd to me at
>   all, but "blindaj tri musoj" does indeed.  Could this be because "tri"
>   is not an adjective but a numeral (a completely different type of bird)?
>
>   (To relatively new English-speaking Esperantists, "tri unuaj lecionoj"
>   also sounds odd; they favor "unuaj tri lecionoj".  As you can see, this
>   is the exact opposite of the "tri blindaj musoj" vs.  "blindaj tri
>   musoj" situation.  I think what we have here is simply first-language
>   interference.)
>
>   ID1:(on MR2:)
>   Wait a minute.  "Tri" is a numeral, not an adjective.  One of
>   Greenberg's universals says that if the demonstrative pronoun, the
>   numeral and the qualifying adjective precede the noun, they go in this
>   order, and if they follow it, the order is either the same or the
>   opposite.  This relieves Zamenhof from the responsibility for "tri
>   blindaj musoj".  Since "granda" and "rugha" are both qualifying
>   adjectives, the problem with "rugha granda libro" can't be up to the
>   language.
So, it looks like your order is admissable, in the sense that it
exists in natural languages.