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Re: The Story of Guper the Foolish Troll

From:Raymond A. Brown <raybrown@...>
Date:Sunday, February 28, 1999, 18:03
At 12:32 pm +0000 28/2/99, BP.Jonsson wrote:
>At 18:17 on 27.2.1999, Raymond A. Brown wrote: > >> >> Presumably t, d, s, z and l are /c/, /J/, /S/, /Z/ and >>/{vcd,pal,lat}/ >> respectively (I can't find a symbol for the latter in >>Kirshenbaum ASCII >> IPA). > >It would be [l;]!
Thanks.
>> But what exactly is r-palatal? Is it a palatalized version of >>the >> apical trill, i.e. the palatalized /r/ of Russian and Gaelic? > >It is possible to pronounce a palato-cacuminal(!) sulcal >approximant, and IIRC some American English pronounce their /r/ >this way. Maybe some Statesians who know their phonetics can >fill us in?
Oh yes, there are many possibilities, that's why I asked for enlightenment. Alas, tho dunn patrick did address some other points that I made, he's still left me in the dark on this one. AFAIK the Russian palatalized /r/ is always as I described, but the realization of "slender r" (i.e. palatalized r) varies quite a bit from one dialect to another, I believe.
>(I also just tried a sulcal central palatal approximant, but it >almost made me vomit! ;)
:)
>> >> Eh? Voiced glottal stop? Surely this is physically impossible, >>since: > >The Nenc [nEn@ts] used to be ascribed this animal. More recent >sources (Catford) say that the two "glottals" of Nenc are >actually EPIglottals, although they correspond to /?/ in other >Samoyed languages.
Ah, stops made with the epiglottis! Yep - such a stop could be voiced. When one recalls that in Polynesian langs and, according to Yuen Ren Chao, in Chinese /?/ corresponds in some languages to the /k/ of others, the Nenc use of an epiglottal stop where related langs have glottal stops seems hardly remarkable. Thanks shedding some light. Ray.