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Phonological musings (was: Announcement: New auxlang "Choton")

From:Ray Brown <ray.brown@...>
Date:Tuesday, October 5, 2004, 17:33
On Monday, October 4, 2004, at 08:11 , Roger Mills wrote:

> Christian Thalmann wrote: >> --- In, "Pascal A. Kramm" <pkramm@A...> wrote: >> >> Oh, one more thing... "buy" is actually pronounced [baI], >> not [buI]. If you need an English example of [uI], better >> use "ruin". >> > Hmm, that's usually ['ru(w)@n] in all but the most careful (US) > pronunciation; British/RP may well vary.
In RP its ['ru.In] - that's the pronunciation I was brought up with. IME all pronunciations are disyllabic.
> Given the knowledge of everyone in this group, especially Our Lord of the > I., I won't _bet_ that there's no diphthongal [uj] in English, but every > ex. > I can think of is 2 syllables-- "Louie" "chewy" "buoy" and "hooey, fooey" > come closest.
Same here. I am not aware of any English dialect that has [uj] - but as English is spoken over such wide areas, I would hesitate to say it never occurs - but it must be rare. It does occur in Britain, however, in Welsh - for example: llwyd [Kujd] (grey/gray), wyth [ujT] (eight), wy [uj] (egg) etc. When anglophones encounter it in proper names like Clwyd [k_hlujd] they invariably pronounce it either as English sound in _boy_, i.e. [k_hlQjd] or as two syllables ['k_hlu.Id] - except in the name Myfanwy [m@'vanuj] where anglophones invariably pronounce the final syllable as [nwi]. [snip]
> Immediate diversion away from YAEPT: > Interestingly, Proto-Austronesian had both *-iw and *-uy (= -uj) in final > position; both quite rare, and often treated irregularly in descendants.
Interesting - both those sounds occur in Welsh. Indeed, [iw] or [Iw] is the sound given to standard Eng. /ju/ in the 'Welsh English' (also _ruin_ is pronounced [rIw.In] there :) While I have no difficulty at all in pronouncing [iw], I do find [uj] difficult. Thus it has long puzzled me why [uj] seems to find favor among some auxlangers - but we'll leave that to them! But on the pronunciation page of the Choton website, the phonetic transcriptions and examples suggest that Choton |ui| is pronounced [u.I], which makes me wonder why it's listed. Or does Pascal intend it to be the diphthong in Welsh _Clwyd_, that is Esperanto's /uj/? I notice that Choton has resurrected Volapük's 'umlauted vowels'. Indeed, the phonology seems quite challenging. If I had been persuaded to accept a phonology half as difficult, I think BrSc would've been polished off long ago ;) ============================================================== On Monday, October 4, 2004, at 01:08 , Pascal A. Kramm wrote: [snip]
> Now this isn't your run-of-the-mill romance auxlang (which has been done > to > death already), but rather it is based upon English (as the most used > natural language for international communication), German (as the > second-most important Germanic language) and Japanese (since East-Asian > languages are generally completely ignored by auxlangs, with Japanese > being > the most important there,
Not sure the Chinese would entirely agree with the last claim! But even so - I find no Japanese influence in the phonology. Indeed, I think most Japanese would have considerable difficulties with it. Basically I think the phonology needs more work; in particular, I would suggest a serious consideration of Japanese phonology. This is meant to be a helpful suggestion. ============================================================== (Thinks: how did this get into the 'Announcement: New auxlang "Choton"' thread? Well, it did, and as it's to do with phonology, I can include it here). On Tuesday, October 5, 2004, at 03:31 , Trebor Jung wrote:
> Christian írta: "Brin and brun used to be pronounced as [bRE~] and [bR9~] > , > respectively. As Christophe would be happy to tell you if he were still > on > the list, that phonemic pair has been lost in the course of the last > century. Nowadays, they are both pronounced [bRE~], so don't feel > compelled > to hear a difference just because the spelling would suggest so." > > The French I learned distinguishes [E~] and [9~]. How about other L2 > Francophones?
Yes, I was taught to pronounce _brin_ as [bRE~] and _brun_ as [bR9~] way back in the 1950s, and I believe they were still widely pronounce that way south of La Manche at that time. But it seems that in the past half century, /9~/ has become unrounded and is now generally pronounced as [E~]. The information I have from people like Christophe, my wife who teaches the language & speaks it fluently, my daughter-in-law who is 100% French and others is that the pronunciation of both _brun_ and _brin_ as [bRE~] is now practically universal. My daughter-in-law tells me that some (note: not all) of her teachers did try to get pupils to distinguish between [E~] and [9~] when she was at school, but that no one does :-) Ray =============================================== =============================================== Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight, which is not so much a twilight of the gods as of the reason." [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]


Andreas Johansson <andjo@...>