Conlang: Re: Tonal Songs and glossalalia (Dan Sulani, Apr 14 '99, 9:19)

Re: Tonal Songs and glossalalia

From:	Dan Sulani <dnsulani@...>
Date:	Wednesday, April 14, 1999, 9:19

From:

Dan Sulani <dnsulani@...>

Date:

Wednesday, April 14, 1999, 9:19

--------------2431D7C5D13FB4EC480AA7FF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan Sulani wrote:

> > > Sally Caves wrote: > >> Are there any musical experts on this list? What does anyone >> know about "tonal songs" -- songs that are sung with meaningless >> words? Bobby McFerrin has come out with a FABULOUS new CD >> called "Circle Songs" (anybody familiar with it) where he and >> famous singers like Nick Bearde, Paul Hillier, and Janis Siegal >> get together and produce entirely vocal "orchestras" of meaningless >> words. There is one song on there, just called "Circle Song Six," >> that is completely haunting. While the rest have a kind of jazzy >> African or Haitian quality to them, this one is hauntingly Middle >> Eastern, and it fooled me into thinking that the man was singing >> a real language. Is this how glossalalia works? The copy on the >> CD speaks of it almost in those terms: "No words are necessary, and, >> >> in fact, words only get in the way of the interaction between the >> singer and the Divine. Words can create separation between >> listeners >> due to language limitations. Tonal songs are universal in their >> appeal and feeling. Such sacred sounds can be understood and >> appreciated >> by all, regardless of their culture, tradition, or background." >> Jonathan >> Goldman. >> >> How "universal" is the tradition of tonal singing? What is its >> relationship to invented languages? I ask this, because Yaguello >> and Schnapp sometimes seem to confuse this kind of language >> invention >> with the stuff that we are doing. (Schnapp's remark about >> "infantile" >> syllables, "open vowels" etc.; he means "open syllables" Matt told >> me). >> > > What McFerrin is doing, I think, is called "scat". I've heard about > the CD, but haven't had the chance to hear it. > According to the story I'm familiar with, scat was started by the > great (IMHO) trumpet player > Louis (Satchmo) Armstrong. It seems that he was > playing and singing at a concert during the early decades of the > century (during the 20's, I think) > when, in the middle of a song, he couldn't remember the lyrics. So he > "faked it" and began singing > nonsense-syllables. The audience thought that he'd done it on purpose > and they loved it, so he continued > to do it at other concerts. The practice caught on and it became known > as "scat". > For a more recent example of scat, there's the CD called > "Scatman's World" by John Larkin > a.k.a. "The Scatman". I love it. BTW, Larkin stutters when he talks, > but never when he scats. > As for "orchestration", what about the Swingle Singers? I've got a > couple of their CDs too. They > use scat to simulate various instruments, creating, totally "a > capella", an orchestra. (Admittedly, > they also use other verbal effects besides scat). You should hear how > they reproduce Tchaikovsky's > 1812 Overture, cannons, bells and all! :-o >

(Dan Sulani , who forgot to write this the first time around, :-) writes: ) Thinking further on this, I realized what might be a connection between scat and scat-like behavior and conlanging: When a person scats, the sounds may be devoid of meaning, but they're not random. Perhaps not consciously and deliberately, but at some level they are selected for their effects. If not, it wouldn't always flow. One can put it into perspective this way: 1) Poets --- manipulate the lexico-semantic and syntactic _and_ phonological levels of language in order to achieve effects. 2) Prose writers --- manipulate only the lexico-semantic and syntactic levels in order to achieve effects (even if the "effect" is only to inform in the driest possible way). If they also pay attention to phonology, their prose is often said to verge on the poetic, no? 3) Scat artists --- manipulate only the phonological level in order to achieve effects. 4) Normal speakers --- (including poets, writers, and scat artists in "normal speech mode") manipulate all levels of a language, but they do it to a far less degree than is normally realized. Quite a lot of what passes for "normal speech" is stereotyped. That's what makes poets and prose writers ( and scat artists!) stand out: the degree to which they creatively manipulate the various levels of language. 5) People who have unfortunately suffered certain types of brain damage can produce unusual utterances at any level of language; but they, of course, don't do it on purpose. 6)What we conlangers do, is deliberately play with the possibilities inherent in communication at all levels. Except, unlike the poet, we do not limit ourselves to the basic building blocks of only one natlang. (Does polylingual poetry exist? (I'm not including sticking in _phrases_ from one language into the text of another lang. I mean switching languages in the middle of a statement, if not the middle of a sentence.)) Dan Sulani -- likehsna rtem zuv tikuhnuh auag inuvuz vaka'a. A word is an awesome thing. --------------2431D7C5D13FB4EC480AA7FF Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html>   Dan Sulani wrote: <blockquote TYPE=CITE>  Sally Caves wrote: <blockquote TYPE=CITE><tt>Are there any musical experts on this list?  What does anyone</tt> <tt>know about "tonal songs" -- songs that are sung with meaningless</tt> <tt>words?  Bobby McFerrin has come out with a FABULOUS new CD</tt> <tt>called "Circle Songs" (anybody familiar with it) where he and</tt> <tt>famous singers like Nick Bearde, Paul Hillier, and Janis Siegal</tt> <tt>get together and produce entirely vocal "orchestras" of meaningless</tt> <tt>words.  There is one song on there, just called "Circle Song Six,"</tt> <tt>that is completely haunting.  While the rest have a kind of jazzy</tt> <tt>African or Haitian quality to them, this one is hauntingly Middle</tt> <tt>Eastern, and it fooled me into thinking that the man was singing</tt> <tt>a real language.  Is this how glossalalia works?  The copy on the</tt> <tt>CD speaks of it almost in those terms: "No words are necessary, and,</tt> <tt>in fact, words only get in the way of the interaction between the</tt> <tt>singer and the Divine.  Words can create separation between listeners</tt> <tt>due to language limitations. Tonal songs are universal in their</tt> <tt>appeal and feeling. Such sacred sounds can be understood and appreciated</tt> <tt>by all, regardless of their culture, tradition, or background."  Jonathan</tt> <tt>Goldman.</tt> <tt>How "universal" is the tradition of tonal singing?  What is its</tt> <tt>relationship to invented languages?  I ask this, because Yaguello</tt> <tt>and Schnapp sometimes seem to confuse this kind of language invention</tt> <tt>with the stuff that we are doing. (Schnapp's remark about "infantile"</tt> <tt>syllables, "open vowels" etc.; he means "open syllables" Matt told me).</tt>  </blockquote> What McFerrin is doing, I think, is  called "scat". I've heard  about the CD, but haven't had the chance to hear it. According to the story I'm familiar with,  scat was started by the great (IMHO) trumpet player Louis (Satchmo) Armstrong. It seems that he was playing and singing at a concert during the early decades of the century (during the 20's, I think) when, in the middle of a song, he couldn't remember the lyrics. So he "faked it" and began singing nonsense-syllables. The audience thought that he'd done it on purpose and they loved it, so he continued to do it at other concerts. The practice caught on and it became known as "scat".     For a more recent example of scat, there's the CD called "Scatman's World" by John Larkin a.k.a.  "The Scatman". I love it. BTW, Larkin stutters when he talks, but never when he scats.     As for "orchestration", what about the Swingle Singers? I've got a couple of their CDs too. They use scat to simulate various instruments, creating, totally "a capella", an orchestra. (Admittedly, they also use other verbal effects besides scat). You should hear how they reproduce Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture, cannons, bells and all!  :-o  </blockquote> (Dan Sulani , who forgot to write this the first time around, :-)   writes:  )     Thinking further on this, I realized what might be a connection between scat and scat-like behavior and conlanging:     When a person scats, the sounds may be devoid of meaning, but they're not random. Perhaps not consciously and deliberately, but at some level they are selected for their effects. If not, it wouldn't always flow. One can put it into perspective this way:     1) Poets --- manipulate the lexico-semantic and syntactic _and_ phonological levels of language in order         to achieve effects.     2) Prose writers --- manipulate only the lexico-semantic and syntactic levels in order to achieve effects         (even if the "effect" is only to inform in the driest possible way). If they also pay attention to         phonology, their prose is often said to verge on the poetic, no?     3) Scat artists --- manipulate only the phonological level in order to achieve effects.     4) Normal speakers --- (including poets, writers, and scat artists in "normal speech mode") manipulate all levels          of a language, but they do it to a far less degree than is normally realized. Quite a lot of what passes for          "normal speech" is stereotyped. That's what makes poets and prose writers ( and scat artists!) stand out:          the degree to which they creatively manipulate the various levels of language.     5) People who have unfortunately suffered certain types of brain damage can produce unusual utterances          at any level of language; but they, of course, don't do it on purpose.     6)What we conlangers do, is deliberately play with the possibilities inherent in communication at all levels.         Except, unlike the poet, we do not limit ourselves to the basic building blocks of only one natlang.         (Does polylingual poetry exist? (I'm not including sticking in _phrases_ from one language into the          text of another lang. I mean switching languages in the middle of a statement, if not the middle of a sentence.)) Dan Sulani     --  likehsna  rtem  zuv  tikuhnuh  auag  inuvuz  vaka'a.  A  word  is  an  awesome  thing.  </html> --------------2431D7C5D13FB4EC480AA7FF--