German _ch_ (was: Heavy Metal Phonation)

On Tuesday, July 13, 2004, at 01:38 , Philip Newton wrote:

> On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:25:16 +0100, Joe <joe@...> wrote:
>> And I substitute [x] for [C](and [X] for [x], though not
>> nearly as consistently), which I'm told occurs in some dialects.
>
> *nods* I believe there are some which only have [x], especially in the
> South.
>
>>> and just have to
>>> practise making it in other contexts as well. (That is, to
>>> phonemicise(?) that allophone.)
>>
>> Well, it's isn't phonemic in German, is it?  It's simply /x/ after front
>> vowels.
Nope - cf. durch [durC]

> Hm, difficult question. I don't think the question on whether [x] and
> [ç] are separate phonemes has been definitively settled, but they may
> not be.
They are often considered as allophones: the normal sound being [C]
(ich-laut) , but [x] (ach-laut) being used after back vowels. However,
there are some awkward factors, e.g. the diminutive suffix -chen is always
[C@n], even after back vowels, cf. these constrasts:
Kuhchen [ku:C@n] ~ Kuchen [ku:x@n]
Tauchen [tauC@n] ~ tauchen [taux@n]
Pfauchen [pfauC@n] ~ pfauchen [pfaux@n]


> They certainly feel very different to this German speaker, but then,
> so do [V] and [@] for me in English, which are also probably
> conditioned allophones.
Nope - this has been argued about ad_nauseam at irregular intervals on
this list. The simple fact is that in some English dialects, e.g. the
south-eastern English I was brought up with & speak, [V] and [@] are
distinct phonemes (cf. curry /kVri/ ~ furry /f@ri/).

in other dialects, e.g. south-Walian English (I lived there for 22 years)
and, 'twould seem, much (all?) of the USA, the two sounds are allophones
(if, indeed, they are two sounds - in south wales they ain't).

[snip]
> Though now I think about it, I think some parts of western and
> south-western Germany have also merged /S/ and /ç/ -- Kirche "church"
> and Kirsche "cherry" both sound like the latter word --, which leads
> to problems when they try to speak "properly" (i.e. introduce [ç] into
> their speech) and hypercorrect (e.g. talking about "friche Fiche"
> instead of "frische Fische").
Yep - and a former colleague of mine used to tell of his German landlady,
when he was student in Germany, who pronounced Hamburg as 'Hambursch'   :)
Ray
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