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German _ch_ (was: Heavy Metal Phonation)

From:Ray Brown <ray.brown@...>
Date:Wednesday, July 14, 2004, 6:57
On Tuesday, July 13, 2004, at 01:38 , Philip Newton wrote:

> On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:25:16 +0100, Joe <joe@...> wrote: >> And I substitute [x] for [C](and [X] for [x], though not >> nearly as consistently), which I'm told occurs in some dialects. > > *nods* I believe there are some which only have [x], especially in the > South. > >>> and just have to >>> practise making it in other contexts as well. (That is, to >>> phonemicise(?) that allophone.) >> >> Well, it's isn't phonemic in German, is it? It's simply /x/ after front >> vowels.
Nope - cf. durch [durC]
> Hm, difficult question. I don't think the question on whether [x] and > [ç] are separate phonemes has been definitively settled, but they may > not be.
They are often considered as allophones: the normal sound being [C] (ich-laut) , but [x] (ach-laut) being used after back vowels. However, there are some awkward factors, e.g. the diminutive suffix -chen is always [C@n], even after back vowels, cf. these constrasts: Kuhchen [ku:C@n] ~ Kuchen [ku:x@n] Tauchen [tauC@n] ~ tauchen [taux@n] Pfauchen [pfauC@n] ~ pfauchen [pfaux@n]
> They certainly feel very different to this German speaker, but then, > so do [V] and [@] for me in English, which are also probably > conditioned allophones.
Nope - this has been argued about ad_nauseam at irregular intervals on this list. The simple fact is that in some English dialects, e.g. the south-eastern English I was brought up with & speak, [V] and [@] are distinct phonemes (cf. curry /kVri/ ~ furry /f@ri/). in other dialects, e.g. south-Walian English (I lived there for 22 years) and, 'twould seem, much (all?) of the USA, the two sounds are allophones (if, indeed, they are two sounds - in south wales they ain't). [snip]
> Though now I think about it, I think some parts of western and > south-western Germany have also merged /S/ and /ç/ -- Kirche "church" > and Kirsche "cherry" both sound like the latter word --, which leads > to problems when they try to speak "properly" (i.e. introduce [ç] into > their speech) and hypercorrect (e.g. talking about "friche Fiche" > instead of "frische Fische").
Yep - and a former colleague of mine used to tell of his German landlady, when he was student in Germany, who pronounced Hamburg as 'Hambursch' :) Ray =============================================== (home) (work) =============================================== "A mind which thinks at its own expense will always interfere with language." J.G. Hamann, 1760