Re: Heavy Metal Phonation

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:25:16 +0100, Joe <joe@...> wrote:
> And I substitute [x] for [C](and [X] for [x], though not
> nearly as consistently), which I'm told occurs in some dialects.
*nods* I believe there are some which only have [x], especially in the South.

> >and just have to
> >practise making it in other contexts as well. (That is, to
> >phonemicise(?) that allophone.)
>
> Well, it's isn't phonemic in German, is it?  It's simply /x/ after front
> vowels.
Hm, difficult question. I don't think the question on whether [x] and
[ç] are separate phonemes has been definitively settled, but they may
not be.

They certainly feel very different to this German speaker, but then,
so do [V] and [@] for me in English, which are also probably
conditioned allophones.

But you (generic) are expected to use [x] or [ç] in the right
distribution when speaking standard German in order to have a good
pronunciation, so they need to learn to make [ç] "on command", even if
it may not be a German phoneme as such.

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:36:33 +1000, Tristan Mc Leay
<kesuari@...> wrote:
> I was of the understanding that it was /C/ that was the phoneme and [x]
> gets used in the vicinity of back vowels...
Hee :)

> At any rate, Rammstein's
> singer(s) seem to use [S] for it an awful lot (that's on topic isn't
> it?). (At least especially in the song 'Ich Will', which sounds more
> like 'Isch Will' to me.)
*nods* common in some dialects. I'd associated it (i.e. [S] for
standard [ç]) with Saxony, off-hand.

Though now I think about it, I think some parts of western and
south-western Germany have also merged /S/ and /ç/ -- Kirche "church"
and Kirsche "cherry" both sound like the latter word --, which leads
to problems when they try to speak "properly" (i.e. introduce [ç] into
their speech) and hypercorrect (e.g. talking about "friche Fiche"
instead of "frische Fische").

Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>

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