Re: NGL:Vector tense #16
| From: | Carlos Thompson <cthompso@...> |
|---|
| Date: | Wednesday, March 3, 1999, 14:45 |
|---|
After this was a long posting I'm snipping almost everything that is not =
replied.
I know the difficulties in translating my own text then I admire anybody =
attempting
to do it. When I get a better feeling on the language I will be able to =
find a way
of combining VXT with TVS and PVS in my own style, at this time I let Jer=
ry be the
supreme master of VXT and I will obey him in his points.
Gerald Koenig wrote:
Probably I will publish Jerry translation in this site, moveing my first =
attempt
somewhere else.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> This is a very explicit and detailed translation which is also a
> tutorial on the use of the vector tenses, or so it has been for me. It
> is not intended as criticism of Carlos' translation, rather it attempts
and not taken like that.
> to show what his translation actually says to me and to offer some
> alternatives. I am grateful to Carlos for providing this very
> tense-intensive work of art which illustrates so many of the
> difficulties of translation, and exposes the loss of meaning, in
> language transition, meaning that is so easily left by the wayside.
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=
+++
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Begin word4word translation:
> [...]
> --------------------------------
> 4.1CTP Wa'aske vus kas ingul ad zier q oha.
> Where your breath unable touched the air.
>
> 4.1S Donde el aire no ha podido ser tocado por tu aliento.
> Where the air has not able to be touched by your breath.
>
> This little sentence is an instructive puzzle. It contains a modal, a
> voice, a negation, and complex tense. It is a paradigm for difficult
> sentences. Here is a procedure for translating this sentence:
>
> 1. Form the active voice affirmative present tense of the basic
> main verb claim of the sentence:
>
> Vus kas zier ku oha.
> Your breath touches the air.
>
> 2. Tense it: Use the tense which reflects the semantics of the claim,
> not the outer form. Only Carlos knows them for sure.
>
> Vus kas mugazu zier ku oha.
> Your breath has been touching and still is touching the air.
Surely you got it.
> This tense is the past perfect progressive. It is used in the example,
> "It has been raining for three days" from Vector Tense #3 where the
> implication is that it still is raining. Partly this tense is chosen
> because the Spanish "ha podido" suggests it. The problem with [ad] is
> that it puts the action in the far past. [ed] could be used but it
> allows the possibilty that the action is completed, but recent. [Ju]
> and [ko] also declare completeness. Simply [pa] again rules out that
> the action might be ongoing in the present. My second choice for tense
> would be [ko].
[...]
> ------------------------------
>
> 10.1CTP Mi birin vu u' ml wa'aske q vatil lnyun duxitgi...
> poxitgi, ml (res) tok.
>
> I carry you in me place that the green ends second ?? third I
> will say. (reflexive?) to myself?
>
> Mi ko birin ivu umi diske ... [I don't have a clue on this idiom,
> it's high above the frostline for me. Also, what does (res)
> signify?]
Well, it was quite literal: it was Octuber 1991 in Stockholm, Summer (Gre=
en) was
over. It was my second Autom in a row.
... and I also knew that I was never to see again a friend whos name was =
Verde and
who I met that Summer.
> Te he traido en me a donde el verde so acaba por segunda vez..
> tercera, dire
> 10.1 GLK is lost in a world of words. ...---...
I've brought you (your image) to where green is over from the second time=
... third
I will say (correct).
> -------------------------------------
> 13.2CTP Ace votcik rolig ke vu ad tok & rolig ke mi no
> This autumn about which you (had) talked and that I
>
> yevza linuz ke kon vus 'ayho.
> not want believe that know your eyes.
>
> 13.2S Ese oton~o del que has hablado y del cual no quiero creer
> que conozca a tus ojos.
> 13.2GLk
> Ace votcik (gua) ke vu ko tok ugol et be gol mi no te di lIRinuz
> ke ro gol fiuh kon a vus 'ayho.
>
> "This fall", (alias:it1), that you had talked about it1 and of it1 I
> do not want to believe that it is possible that it1 is (not?) known
> to your eyes.
>
> [not sure about the idiom 'conocer a tus ojos'].It seems to say that
> she might not have seen this fall, ie, she's passed on.
> [parentheses about 'gua' are optional].
Is the autumn the one who would knew the eyes, based in the Spanish form:
13.2S Ese oton~o del que has hablado y del cual no quiero creer
que conozca a tus ojos.
This fall you have talked about, and from which (the fall) I don't want t=
o believe
that it (the fall) knew your eyes.
Well, that a literal translation, the meaning is something else, I supose.
> -----------------------------
>
> 2.3CTP Faci biuhos ke sazyas ?? vus nom.
> Other images that acquire your name.
>
> I can't locate [sazyas] in the lexicon. Is it [suaz]?
It was proposed during the thread:
* sazyas V - to acquire
> \1itm suaz
> \5def get, put
>
> 2.3GLK: Faci biuhos ke suaz vus nom.
> Other images that acquire your name.
>
> 2.3S Otras ima'genes las que adquieren tu numbre.
> -----------------------------
> 6.3CTP Et mi no (gul) inpIrdo vis faci newiy vus 'eksar am
> inbelanit, & mi (pas) timnemo umi ke eco mogor das vus 'eksar
> 'uinmogig & ke je faci laumesom & faci noyesom, noyes tauri laus q
> kuyes ke eco votcikom no ad das, ke indhur vus biuo.
>
> And I am not able to avoid I think of another thing but your
> was being forgotten presence [sic], and I am able to convince myself th=
at this
> ghost in fact holds your presence and that there exist other faces-nom
> and other walls-nom , walls of yellow [colored] like the leaves this fa=
ll
> season-NOM did not hold, that keep your image.
>
> 6.3S Y no puedo evitar pensar en otra cosa que no sea tu presencia no
> olvidada , y puedo convencerme a tal punto que este fantasma realmente
> guarda tu imagen y son otros rostros y otros muros, muros amarillos com=
o
> las hojas que no tuvo este otono, los que guarden tu imagen.
>
> 6.3GLK Et mi no ka IRinpirdo vIRis be ol faci din roir: ke no je vus
> leowxi inbelanitiad, et mi ka sieh nIRimotim ke rom: eco mogor das vus
> leowxi; et ke faci laumes et faci noyes gua je, noyes tauri laus ku
> kuyes ke eco votcik no pa das, et ke gol indur vus biuo.
>
> And I am not able to avoid thinking of one other thing, whether or
> not that thing be your unforgotten presence; and I am able to convince
> myself that in fact: this phantasm holds your presence, and that other
> faces and other walls exist, [faces,walls,=3Dthey] walls of yellow like
> the leaves this fall that did not hold on, and that they carry your
> image.
>
> Ka is the modal can or is able to. IRinpirdo (to avoid) is the
> infinitive formed by "infixing" the IR before the first vowel of the
> word, here it puts the IR out front. vIMis would be the infixed past
> participle, -ado, -ido, -ed. I am using capitalization for the moment
> to call attention to them. But I am using the Spanish infinitive
> "vIRis" construction in the VXT. Thus VXT is using Spanish grammer
> here. "Inbelanitiad" is the adjectival use of the participle, -ed,
> ado. The [i] signals the adjective, the [ad] derives from the ad tense
> particle, together giving [-iad]. [Rom] is the modal which declares a
> match between what is in-mind and what is factual. "Eco mogor _rom das
> vus leowxi" means that this ghost in fact retains the in-mind longed
> for presence. [ko"] is the "has" past perfect, it also gives finality t=
o
> the falling of the leaves. "Noyes.. gua" assigns a pronoun, [gol], it1=
,
> to the faces and walls, and later the [gol] is used to make very clear
> that the subject of indur is these faces and walls. Carlos accomplished
> this by nominalizing faces and walls using TVS; I am just showing how
> it can be done in pure VXT.
>
> The original Spanish sentence is something of a play on words to me,
> the semantics seem to suggest that the ghost is the sole object of
> thought, the grammar claiming otherwise. I would appreciate hearing
> from Spanish speakers about my translation of this sentence. I think
> I'm missing something. I read it to a Colombiana acquaintance and she
> said it made perfect sense, and she loved the literary qualities,
> especially the use of the word "presencia" which I don't think I've
> got right yet; still I have trouble with the negatives in this sentence.
>
> 6S Y no puedo evitar pensar en otra cosa que no sea tu presencia no
> olvidada , y puedo convencerme a tal punto que este fantasma realmente
> guarda tu imagen y son otros rostros y otros muros, muros amarillos com=
o
> las hojas que no tuvo este otono, los que guarden tu imagen.
> My Direct from Spanish translation:
>
> And I can't avoid thinking about another thing that might not be her
> unforgotten presence, and I can convince myself to the point that
> this ghost-image really holds her image and that they are _other
> faces and other walls, walls of yellow like the leaves that the fall
> didn't hold, which are the ones that hold her image.
I think this translation is correct.
In case someone is lost: the ones who hold her image are the walls and th=
e faces,
the ones that are yellow are the walls, and 1991 was a hot summer which e=
ventually
turned into winter with little yellow colored trees between.
> Just a comment that this is an amazing piece of writing especially for
> one so young as Carlos was when he wrote it; when I am reading it I
> feel like I am reaching across a great unbridgable chasm of time and
> contacting a lost entity, myself, such is the universality of his
> words. It has been a great exercise to start off VXT with. Thanks
> Carlos.
>
> As an aside, during this translation I attended a one year anniversary
> of the death of the mother of a friend of mine who is a mystic and a
> preacher. Her mother's ashes had been distributed in several places, in
> a secret place in the garden of her mother's house, which was sold, in
> her favorite forest, at her summer home near her children, and in the
> sea, for she was the widow of a Navy captain. In the wood paneled
> conference room at the ceremony there was a large bowl of fallen leaves
> and flower petals, located inside a stone circle of angular desert
> rocks. My friend read from the center of the circle during the candle
> lighted poetry reading relating how she also sees her mother from time
> to time in the clouds.
>
> Jerry
> --------------------------------
> NGL is One.
--
Carlos Eugenio Thompson Pinz=F3n
ITEC-Telecom, Colombia
cthompso@alpha.telecom-co.net
http://alpha.telecom-co.net/~cthompso/