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Re: NGL:Vector tense #16

From:Carlos Thompson <cthompso@...>
Date:Wednesday, March 3, 1999, 14:45
After this was a long posting I'm snipping almost everything that is not =
I know the difficulties in translating my own text then I admire anybody =
to do it.  When I get a better feeling on the language I will be able to =
find a way
of combining VXT with TVS and PVS in my own style, at this time I let Jer=
ry be the
supreme master of VXT and I will obey him in his points.

Gerald Koenig wrote:

> Mon Feb 8 16:23:43 1999 > Subject: Inh`pxuom - Niehnga > X-URL: > -------------
Probably I will publish Jerry translation in this site, moveing my first = attempt somewhere else.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > This is a very explicit and detailed translation which is also a > tutorial on the use of the vector tenses, or so it has been for me. It > is not intended as criticism of Carlos' translation, rather it attempts
and not taken like that.
> to show what his translation actually says to me and to offer some > alternatives. I am grateful to Carlos for providing this very > tense-intensive work of art which illustrates so many of the > difficulties of translation, and exposes the loss of meaning, in > language transition, meaning that is so easily left by the wayside.
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=
> Spanish: > X-URL:
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Begin word4word translation: > [...] > -------------------------------- > 4.1CTP Wa'aske vus kas ingul ad zier q oha. > Where your breath unable touched the air. > > 4.1S Donde el aire no ha podido ser tocado por tu aliento. > Where the air has not able to be touched by your breath. > > This little sentence is an instructive puzzle. It contains a modal, a > voice, a negation, and complex tense. It is a paradigm for difficult > sentences. Here is a procedure for translating this sentence: > > 1. Form the active voice affirmative present tense of the basic > main verb claim of the sentence: > > Vus kas zier ku oha. > Your breath touches the air. > > 2. Tense it: Use the tense which reflects the semantics of the claim, > not the outer form. Only Carlos knows them for sure. > > Vus kas mugazu zier ku oha. > Your breath has been touching and still is touching the air.
Surely you got it.
> This tense is the past perfect progressive. It is used in the example, > "It has been raining for three days" from Vector Tense #3 where the > implication is that it still is raining. Partly this tense is chosen > because the Spanish "ha podido" suggests it. The problem with [ad] is > that it puts the action in the far past. [ed] could be used but it > allows the possibilty that the action is completed, but recent. [Ju] > and [ko] also declare completeness. Simply [pa] again rules out that > the action might be ongoing in the present. My second choice for tense > would be [ko].
> ------------------------------ > > 10.1CTP Mi birin vu u' ml wa'aske q vatil lnyun duxitgi... > poxitgi, ml (res) tok. > > I carry you in me place that the green ends second ?? third I > will say. (reflexive?) to myself? > > Mi ko birin ivu umi diske ... [I don't have a clue on this idiom, > it's high above the frostline for me. Also, what does (res) > signify?]
Well, it was quite literal: it was Octuber 1991 in Stockholm, Summer (Gre= en) was over. It was my second Autom in a row. ... and I also knew that I was never to see again a friend whos name was = Verde and who I met that Summer.
> Te he traido en me a donde el verde so acaba por segunda vez.. > tercera, dire > 10.1 GLK is lost in a world of words. ...---...
I've brought you (your image) to where green is over from the second time= ... third I will say (correct).
> ------------------------------------- > 13.2CTP Ace votcik rolig ke vu ad tok & rolig ke mi no > This autumn about which you (had) talked and that I > > yevza linuz ke kon vus 'ayho. > not want believe that know your eyes. > > 13.2S Ese oton~o del que has hablado y del cual no quiero creer > que conozca a tus ojos. > 13.2GLk > Ace votcik (gua) ke vu ko tok ugol et be gol mi no te di lIRinuz > ke ro gol fiuh kon a vus 'ayho. > > "This fall", (alias:it1), that you had talked about it1 and of it1 I > do not want to believe that it is possible that it1 is (not?) known > to your eyes. > > [not sure about the idiom 'conocer a tus ojos'].It seems to say that > she might not have seen this fall, ie, she's passed on. > [parentheses about 'gua' are optional].
Is the autumn the one who would knew the eyes, based in the Spanish form: 13.2S Ese oton~o del que has hablado y del cual no quiero creer que conozca a tus ojos. This fall you have talked about, and from which (the fall) I don't want t= o believe that it (the fall) knew your eyes. Well, that a literal translation, the meaning is something else, I supose.
> ----------------------------- > > 2.3CTP Faci biuhos ke sazyas ?? vus nom. > Other images that acquire your name. > > I can't locate [sazyas] in the lexicon. Is it [suaz]?
It was proposed during the thread: * sazyas V - to acquire
> \1itm suaz > \5def get, put > > 2.3GLK: Faci biuhos ke suaz vus nom. > Other images that acquire your name. > > 2.3S Otras ima'genes las que adquieren tu numbre.
> ----------------------------- > 6.3CTP Et mi no (gul) inpIrdo vis faci newiy vus 'eksar am > inbelanit, & mi (pas) timnemo umi ke eco mogor das vus 'eksar > 'uinmogig & ke je faci laumesom & faci noyesom, noyes tauri laus q > kuyes ke eco votcikom no ad das, ke indhur vus biuo. > > And I am not able to avoid I think of another thing but your > was being forgotten presence [sic], and I am able to convince myself th=
at this
> ghost in fact holds your presence and that there exist other faces-nom > and other walls-nom , walls of yellow [colored] like the leaves this fa=
> season-NOM did not hold, that keep your image. > > 6.3S Y no puedo evitar pensar en otra cosa que no sea tu presencia no > olvidada , y puedo convencerme a tal punto que este fantasma realmente > guarda tu imagen y son otros rostros y otros muros, muros amarillos com=
> las hojas que no tuvo este otono, los que guarden tu imagen. > > 6.3GLK Et mi no ka IRinpirdo vIRis be ol faci din roir: ke no je vus > leowxi inbelanitiad, et mi ka sieh nIRimotim ke rom: eco mogor das vus > leowxi; et ke faci laumes et faci noyes gua je, noyes tauri laus ku > kuyes ke eco votcik no pa das, et ke gol indur vus biuo. > > And I am not able to avoid thinking of one other thing, whether or > not that thing be your unforgotten presence; and I am able to convince > myself that in fact: this phantasm holds your presence, and that other > faces and other walls exist, [faces,walls,=3Dthey] walls of yellow like > the leaves this fall that did not hold on, and that they carry your > image. > > Ka is the modal can or is able to. IRinpirdo (to avoid) is the > infinitive formed by "infixing" the IR before the first vowel of the > word, here it puts the IR out front. vIMis would be the infixed past > participle, -ado, -ido, -ed. I am using capitalization for the moment > to call attention to them. But I am using the Spanish infinitive > "vIRis" construction in the VXT. Thus VXT is using Spanish grammer > here. "Inbelanitiad" is the adjectival use of the participle, -ed, > ado. The [i] signals the adjective, the [ad] derives from the ad tense > particle, together giving [-iad]. [Rom] is the modal which declares a > match between what is in-mind and what is factual. "Eco mogor _rom das > vus leowxi" means that this ghost in fact retains the in-mind longed > for presence. [ko"] is the "has" past perfect, it also gives finality t=
> the falling of the leaves. "Noyes.. gua" assigns a pronoun, [gol], it1=
> to the faces and walls, and later the [gol] is used to make very clear > that the subject of indur is these faces and walls. Carlos accomplished > this by nominalizing faces and walls using TVS; I am just showing how > it can be done in pure VXT. > > The original Spanish sentence is something of a play on words to me, > the semantics seem to suggest that the ghost is the sole object of > thought, the grammar claiming otherwise. I would appreciate hearing > from Spanish speakers about my translation of this sentence. I think > I'm missing something. I read it to a Colombiana acquaintance and she > said it made perfect sense, and she loved the literary qualities, > especially the use of the word "presencia" which I don't think I've > got right yet; still I have trouble with the negatives in this sentence. > > 6S Y no puedo evitar pensar en otra cosa que no sea tu presencia no > olvidada , y puedo convencerme a tal punto que este fantasma realmente > guarda tu imagen y son otros rostros y otros muros, muros amarillos com=
> las hojas que no tuvo este otono, los que guarden tu imagen. > My Direct from Spanish translation: > > And I can't avoid thinking about another thing that might not be her > unforgotten presence, and I can convince myself to the point that > this ghost-image really holds her image and that they are _other > faces and other walls, walls of yellow like the leaves that the fall > didn't hold, which are the ones that hold her image.
I think this translation is correct. In case someone is lost: the ones who hold her image are the walls and th= e faces, the ones that are yellow are the walls, and 1991 was a hot summer which e= ventually turned into winter with little yellow colored trees between.
> Just a comment that this is an amazing piece of writing especially for > one so young as Carlos was when he wrote it; when I am reading it I > feel like I am reaching across a great unbridgable chasm of time and > contacting a lost entity, myself, such is the universality of his > words. It has been a great exercise to start off VXT with. Thanks > Carlos. > > As an aside, during this translation I attended a one year anniversary > of the death of the mother of a friend of mine who is a mystic and a > preacher. Her mother's ashes had been distributed in several places, in > a secret place in the garden of her mother's house, which was sold, in > her favorite forest, at her summer home near her children, and in the > sea, for she was the widow of a Navy captain. In the wood paneled > conference room at the ceremony there was a large bowl of fallen leaves > and flower petals, located inside a stone circle of angular desert > rocks. My friend read from the center of the circle during the candle > lighted poetry reading relating how she also sees her mother from time > to time in the clouds. > > Jerry > -------------------------------- > NGL is One.
-- Carlos Eugenio Thompson Pinz=F3n ITEC-Telecom, Colombia