Re: CHAT National toponyms

On Saturday, September 18, 2004, at 08:38 , Joe wrote:

> Ray Brown wrote:
[snip]
>> "In the case of England & Scotland its because they are _kingdoms_ which,
>> since the Stuarts, have been united under one crown and were in 1709
>> formally united as the Kingdom of Great Britain." Duh!
>>
>
> They're not kingdoms.  They *were* kingdoms.  But now they are one
> kingdom.
{sigh - beats head against wall} "...formally united as the Kingdom of
Great Britain."

If something is united, it is made _one_. 'Kingdom' is *singular*, that
means _one_. (More than one is what we call 'plural'.)

1709 is when it happened, nearly 300 years ago.

But it ain't so simple a you keep trying to tell me, John & others. Relics
of the former two monarchies still survive. For example our present Queen
is still, as Queen of England, the Supreme Governor of the establish
(Episcopalian) Church of England and also, as Queen of Scotland, the
Supreme Governor of the established (Presbyterian) Church of Scotland.

[snip]
>> In fact, as far as I can see it, the logic of your position is that she
>> should be Elizabeth I, since she is the first queen of that name to be
>> Queen of the UK. Have you stopped to ask yourself why she is styled
>> Elizabeth II?
>>
>
> I have, actually.  I don't know.  It seems a tad stupid to me.  The most
> sensible styling would simply be 'Elizabeth of the United Kingdom', as
> opposed to 'Elizabeth of England'.
Yes, if it was as simple as you make out then she would be 'Elizabeth,
Queen of Great Britain' (or maybe 'the United Kingdom'), and Elizabeth
Tudor would be simply 'Elizabeth, Queen of England'.

> But who knows?
I do, and many other people do also. I have been vainly trying to explain.

>> Why, if what I said is untrue, was it agreed at the time that the
>> reigning
>> monarch of the UK would take the higher number out of the English & Scots
>> lines of monarchs?
> Well, that's a good question.  I'd guess it was around the time of
> William IV(Who should strictly have been William III in Scotland).
Nope - Scots nationalism was pretty weak then (if indeed it existed).

It was, as I have said several times, around the time of the accession of
Elizabeth II. The person who made the suggestion was Winston Churchill; it
was in response to some people north of the border who were insisting on
calling her Elizabeth I. But the point is that this compromise makes no
sense unless the former kingdoms of England & Scotland have some sort of
continuity in the _one_ Kingdom of Great Britain (and NI).
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On Sunday, September 19, 2004, at 05:04 , John Cowan wrote:

> Ray Brown scripsit:
>
>> Indeed, strictly she is not only Queen of the United Kingdom either; she
>> is Queen of Canada, Australia, New Zealand and one or other places IIRC.
>
> Here are Elizabeth's styles:
[snip - but great list!]


>> Nah - the UK is a unique institution, with much of its
>> constitution unwritten, designed to mystify all furriners  ;)
>
> Not just foreigners, but natives too, I think.
I think you're right  :)

>> But 'George' is one of the Prince of Wales's names!
>
> So it is:  Charles Philip Arthur George, no less.
Yep.

>> Many people had been hoping he would choose one of his other names,
>> 'Arthur' (which BTW, unlike either Charles or George, is spelled the
>> same in Welsh as in English).
>
> Perhaps he didn't feel he could live up to being King Arthur.
Maybe - but if he emulates his grandfather, George VI, he won't do too
badly IMO.

(BTW the Welsh for _Charles_ is 'Siarl', for _Philip_ is 'Phylip' [sic]
and for _George_ is 'Siôr')

> --
>                 Si hoc legere scis, nimium eruditionis habes.
     :-D

PS - Maybe it is time this thread closed - IMO it's becoming tedious and
really has nothing to do with language construction.

Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
ray.brown@freeuk.com
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"They are evidently confusing science with technology."
UMBERTO ECO				September, 2004