> To: <cybalist@...>
> From: "Dennis Poulter" <dpoulter@...>
> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:01:21 +0800
> Reply-to: cybalist@egroups.com
> Subject: Re: [tied] Re: IE, AA, Nostratic and Ringo
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Håkan Lindgren
> To: Cybalist
> Sent: Thursday, 27 July, 2000 2:35 PM
> Subject: [tied] Re: IE, AA, Nostratic and Ringo
>
>
> We are usually told that "everything began with the Greeks" - they
> invented science, philosophy, architecture, mathematics, art, etc.
> I've even heard this at university. During my university studies (I
> studied the history of ideas) the influence on Greek philosophy and
> science from Egypt or other countries was hardly mentioned. But if
> most of the Greek words for these activities are borrowed, then the
> picture changes considerably. The Greeks must have been much more
> dependent on other cultures than what is widely known. Does anyone
> here know more about this - from whom did the Greeks borrow this?
> Could you give any specific examples of words and concepts being
> borrowed?
>
> Thank you Haakan for the interest. You're quite right that, if
> correct, this changes everything - in particular European perception
> of the non-European world and our relationship with it.
> The subject is vast, and this forum is no place to discuss the
> whole gamut. I've tried to limit myself to the linguistic
> consequences for an important IE language, Greek, and only small
> ventures into the culture as I'm no expert on either Egypt or Greece
> and have only limited resources available here. John, my main
> antagonist here generally argues from a historical/archaeological
> point of view, which I have done my best to research via the net and
> to counter, since if the history and archaeology stand up, then the
> general scheme in which this massive cultural and linguistic
> borrowing could take place also stands.
> I admit I've used this forum somewhat as a sounding board to test
> the data, since, of all people, Indo-Europeanists would be most
> likely to disagree. Besides, my fundamental interest in the whole
> question is linguistic.
> So, to found out more, I suggest you start with Martin Bernal's -
> Black Athena, The Afroasiatic Roots of Classical Civilisation. Amazon
> have it. There are two volumes, with massive annotation and
> bibliographies. The work has also produced a furore in American
> academic circles, an idea of which you can glean from
> gopher://gopher.lib.virginia.edu/00/alpha/bmcr/v96/96-4-5 which is
> a review by Martin Bernal of a book "Not Out of Africa" by Mary
> Levkowitz, itself a savage critique of Bernal's Black Athena.
> Another place to get an idea of the storm this has created is "The
> Afrocentric Debate" at
http://www.jps.net/kabalen/afro.htm
> However this site doesn't seem to be working yet, the original
> address was :
http://www.he.net/~skyeagle/afro.htm
>
> The idea that "everything began with the Greeks", as you will find
> very well elucidated in Vol.1 of BA, is very recent, having its
> origin in the early 1800's. Up to then, from Herodotos to the French
> Revolution, the accepted wisdom was the Greeks were the (imperfect)
> transmitters of the ancient wisdom of Egypt.
>
> The only new piece of data that had become available was that Greek
> was an Indo-European language. Even so, K.O. Mueller, whose book
> Introduction to a Scientific System of Mythology (1825) was most
> influential in demolishing the idea of an outside source for Greek
> mythology, didn't draw on this new science. But it coincided with
> several new trends in European thinking, which I would summarise very
> briefly as :
> 1. Romanticism and Racism - the notions that races were distinct
> and had eternal essences, that racial purity was the ideal, and that
> the white (misnamed in this period as Caucasian) race were superior
> and had the right, even duty, to conquer and subjugate the lesser
> races to bring them the benefits of civilisation (Manifest Destiny,
> La Mission Civilisatrice) - Prometheus being seen as the archetypical
> European;
> 2. a wave of "Philohellenism" across Europe, particularly during
> the Greek War of Independence, which was pictured as young, dynamic,
> progressive Europe throwing off the shackles of the old, degenerate
> and despotic Orient. This Philohellenism was particularly strong in
> Germany (as was Romanticism), where the Germans were seen as the
> spiritual successors of the Greeks (while the French were seen as the
> heirs of Rome, and England as the successor of the Phoenicia),
> particularly in language and the political disunity of the period;
> 3. the educational reforms instituted in Prussia, which were
> entrusted to these Philhellenes, who established Classics, and
> particularly study of the Greeks, as the central pillar of the new
> "Bildung". This reform has enormous success and was soon emulated in
> other countries, particularly England and US, and laid the
> foundations of the modern university system.
>
> With the hardening of the attitude of European racial superiority
> it became more and more unthinkable that the cradle of European
> civilisation and the epitome of all the virtues of the white race
> could owe anything whatsoever to Africans or Semites, and of course
> any actual mixing of the blood was utterly out of the question. Thus
> was born the image of dynamic, patriarchal, sky-worshipping white
> Greeks warriors invading and dominating the passive, matriarchal,
> Earth Mother-worshipping albeit more advanced civilisations of the
> Aegean basin.
> This is the real myth - not Kadmos and Danaos.
>
> Although modern scholarship is no longer (one would hope) overtly
> racist in the way much of pre-war scholarship in this area was (If
> you don't believe, check out people like Rhys Carpenter, Salomon
> Reinach et al.), the paradigm has been set, and academic careers,
> reputations and millions of word of print have been expended
> adumbrating and promoting this paradigm. So, if you're really
> interested, you have to approach it from a rather oblique angle,
> since, other than Bernal's work and "Afrocentrist" writers such as
> CGG James or Cheik Anta Diop, there are no works of reference.
>
> So, to briefly answer your question "from whom?" - the Egyptians
> and the Semitic-speaking Levantine cities.
> Some specific examples :
> 1. Toponyms
> Athens Eg. Ht Nt the temple/house of
> Neit
> Thebes Eg. d_b3t temple, shrine; d_b3
> wicker float; Sem. te:bah ark, chest
> Sparta/Sardis Eg. sp(3)(t) distrinct (nome) and its
> capital
> Mycenae Sem. makHaneh camp, resting place
> Salamis Sem. root slm peace, security
> Larissa Eg. r-3Ht Entry to Fertile
> Land
> Kopais (lake) Eg. KbH lake with wild fowl
> Kephissos (rivers) Eg. kbH fresh (of water)
> Megara (Meara) Sem. mGrt cave
> Mothone Eg. mtwn arena for bull fighting
>
> 2. Divine, Semi-Divine and Legendary Figures
> Rhadamanthys Eg. rd' mant_u Mantu gives - Mantu
> patron deity of 11th dyn. (Mantuhotpe/Menthotpe)
> Hera(kles) Sem. Hrr 1. noble, free 2.
> scorch, burn (cf. Sem. Erra the Scorcher)
> Okeanos Sem. 3wg draw a circle
> Titanoi Sem. t_yt_ mud
> Semele Eg. smlyt royal consort
> I(a)on Eg. 'iwn(t)(y) bowman, barbarian,
> cf. Ionians, Pan/Paion p3 'iwn the barbarian
> Io Eg. 'iH (Copt. ioh)
> Moon; 'iht/'ihw wild cow
> Europa Sem. 3rb west, setting sun
> Anchinoe Eg. 3nkH nwy life-giving waters,
> cf. Anchirrhoe 3nkH + IE sreu
> Kekrops Eg. kHpr k3 ra' by-name of Senwosre I
> (12th dyn) - legendary founder of Athens
>
> 3. Weaponry and Trade Goods
> harma chariot and tackle Sem. Hrm net
> phasganon sword Sem. root psg
> cleave
> xiphos sword Eg. sft
> knife
> chrysos gold Sem. kHarus
> gold
> elephas ivory Eg. 3bw
> elephant
> sitos wheat (as cereal) Eg. s(w)t
> wheat
> chiton/kiton garment Sem. ktn/ Heb.ketonet
> tunic
> lita linen Sem. lt_
> covering (Heb. lo:t_, Ass. lit_u)
>
> 4. Miscellaneous words/concepts
> schema - form and sema - mark, sign Sem. Sem name
> xenos foreigner, enemy Eg. Snt and Sem. s_n'
> hate, enemy
> makar- blessed Eg. m3' kHrw true
> of voice, i.e. the Blessed Dead
> tima- honour Eg. d' m3' render
> true, justify
> chera widow Eg. kH3rt widow
> martyr witness Eg. matrw witness
> bomos altar Sem. bamah high
> place, altar
> haima blood, spirit, courage Sem. Hayyim life
> kudos divine glory Sem. qds holy
> kosm- cosmos, etc. Sem. qsm divide,
> arrange, decide
>
> While members of this list may not agree with some or all of these,
> there are no accepted IE etymologies for any of these words (AFAIK),
> so I think there is a case here to be investigated more fully.
> Futhermore, this can be investigated as it is citing languages that
> are well known, rather than having recourse to unknown
> Asianic/Mediterranean languages.
>
> Regards
> Dennis
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