Re: lexicon

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andreas Johansson" <andjo@...>

> > Mark wrote:
> > > > But if we restrict the discussion to Human language and Human
> > > > art, then there's no doubt that language came first; it's
> > > > a built-in instinct, whereas art is a cultural construct.
> >
> > Doesn't "culture" go hand in hand with "language" and "ritual"?  How can
> > you
> > separate any of these?  For heaven's sake, LANGUAGE is a cultural
> > construct.
> >
> > Andreas wrote [responding to Mark's "there's no doubt that language came
first..."]

> > > How can we be sure of this? Who says there can't have been cultural
> > constructs
> > > before hominids learned to speak? One might think that chimpanzees'
> > "tool
> > > traditions" might classify as cultural constructs, and chimps don't
> > speak.
Me, supporting Andreas about chimpanzee's tool traditions standing in as
cultural constructs:
> > True.
Me: refining Andreas' point a little and arguing against Mark's claim about
the before and after development:
> > But what if everything evolved together for humans?  Why does there have
> > to
> > be a before and after sequence?  I've even heard language described (I
> > think
> > by Chomsky himself) as evolving along with human motor skills.  In
> > theory,
> > the fine-tuning of the nervous system for hand movement and fingers
> > (to
> > build things) evolved along with the fine-tuning of the tongue...that
> > both
> > came from the same advanced brain developments.
Andreas [not sure I'm attacking him or not! :) ]
> I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to convey here - by form you seem
to
> be arguing against what I wrote above,
Not really.  I'm adding my two cents and a half to your theory.  The only
thing I think should be reconsidered is whether one aspect of human
development precedes the other.  I don't think it does.  I also don't think
that apes are going to develop language in any more complicated way than
they have developed "culture."  Your point was that apes have a culture
without having a language.  I feel that that idea needs  to be refined a
little.  Both chimpanzees and wolves have non-lingual ways of communicating
with each other--body language, expressions, vocalizations--and both
chimpanzees and wolves have also developed social structures and
hierarchies, a "culture" if you wish: behaviors that are acceptable and
non-acceptable, approval and disapproval that is communicated and learned by
living in these societies.  Chimpanzees are nearer us in tool-making
abilities, which might put them a rung above wolves in societal development.
Both you and I are in agreement that Mark's theory is flawed, but I wanted
to make sure that you and I agree that the one (culture) doesn't necessarily
precede the other (communication).  I agree with you that we really just
don't know, but I hang my hat on one theoretical peg more readily than I do
on another...by private conviction, that is; not because I'm an expert by
any means at any of these sciences.

> but in content you seem to be
> supporting me; if, as you and Chomsky suggest, "language" and "culture"
> developed simultaneously, that would _prove_ that "language" does not
> necessarily precede "culture" (sinking Mark's claim for good), but as I
assume
> you realize the truth of this suggestion cannot be regarded as certain,
> wherefore, AFAICT, we're back to my point - we simply _do not know_ in
what
> sequence these things arose and with which, if any, causal relationships.
Well exactly.  What I am in most disagreement about is the notion that
culture *followed* language acquisition.  Culture and language move
together--I am convinced of it--in the ape world, and in the human world.
In other words, if apes communicate with one another, however "primitively"
from our standpoint, they also have culture with one another, however
"primitive" from our standpoint.  This is relevant because it forwards MY
unconfirmed theory that culture and communication develop together with the
brain, whether human or not.

> > Andreas again:
> > > (Lest someone invokes the experiments regarding teaching captive
> > chimps to
> > > speak, let me point out that chimps out in the jungle certainly does
> > not
> > speak
> > > anything like a Human Language, and it's they who have the "tool
> > traditions",
> > > by which I mean the fact that certain groups use tools/techniques that
> > are
> > > learnt from the earlier generation and does not occur in other
> > groups.)
Understood.

Me:
> > Yes, but they don't also have by far the developed manual motor skills
> > that
> > humans do, and concomittantly the same lingual developments.  They can
> > make
> > and use tools, but they aren't building rafts, building fires, or
> > making
> > ritual drawings in caves.  Clearly the ability to think in abstractions
> > is
> > there, but the sign language that chimps and gorillas use with humans is
> > a
> > human/simian relationship.  It's been observed that few of these
> > animals
> > teach the sign language to their infants.  It's not as though we can
> > plant
> > the discovery in them, turn them back into the wild, and voila!  the
> > chimpanzees will teach this technology to their fellow chimpanzees in
> > the
> > jungle, vastly expediting their development.  My point is that I can't
> > think
> > of tool-making and language as a "before" and "after" scenario.  Who
> > knows
> > why our fellow apes did not or cannot evolve the way we did?   Who knows
> > why
> > *we* did so?
>
> This seems to be rather beside the point, does it not?
Well, no.   For the reasons I've explained above.  I'm just interested in
the topic and making my point a little more expansively.

> My little paranthesized
> piece above was just intended to block a possible line of attack from
people
> who believe that human-simian sign language indeed is something comparable
to
> human language - since you apparently do not, we should be in agreement!
Andreas... please!  lighten up!  Can I re-conceptualize a theory you put
forward, or flap my arms around a bit, without mussing your neck fur? :) :)
:)  We're in agreement.

Jumping up and down and swinging from a tree...  :)

Cheers...
Sally Caves
scaves@frontiernet.net
Eskkoat ol ai sendran, rohsan nuehra celyil takrem bomai nakuo.
"My shadow follows me, putting strange, new roses into the world."

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