Re: "Anticipatory" Tense

At 6:19 pm -0500 4/3/02, Ian Maxwell wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Tim May" <butsuri@...>
>To: <CONLANG@...>
>Sent: Monday, 04 March, 2002 14.37
>Subject: Re: "Anticipatory" Tense
>
>> I think the main problem is that I can't find a suitable way to
>> paraphrase the present perfect, and so can't make a future
>> equivalent.
>
>If I'm not mistaken, the present perfect is "I have walked" or "I walked",
>compared to the past perfect "I had walked".
You are not mistaken.
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At 6:23 pm -0500 4/3/02, Ian Maxwell wrote:
>Correction on my last message--"I have walked" is the present perfect, but not
>"I walked". I was confused because there is no distinction between the two in
>Latin, the only language I have studied officially.
True - but even in Latin the difference shows up if there are dependent
clauses using the subjunctive mood.  If the main verb is the Latin 'Perfect
tense' with the present perfect meaning, then the subjunctives may be only
the 'present subjunctive' or 'perfect subjunctive'; whereas if the main
verb 'Perfect tense' has the simple past meaning, then only the 'imperfect
subjunctive' or 'pluperfect subjunctive' may be used.

Classical Greek, of course, was much clearer in this respect and had
separate indicative 'tenses' for the two different meaning, e.g.
pheúgo: "I flee"
éphugon "I fled"
pépheuga "I have fled [and am now safe]"
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At 11:29 pm +0000 4/3/02, Tim May wrote:
[snip]
>
>Yes, that's correct - the present perfect is 'I have walked'.  But
>what I meant by "paraphrase" was to express this idea without using
>the perfect formation 'have'.  That is, to express it as I might if
>English lacked a perfect, as it lacks a prospective.  My apologies, if
>I was unclear.
Well, many of the earth's languages express this perfectly well without
recourse to "have".  As Lars reminded us, the modern insular Celtic
languages express the perfect aspect by using the preposition "after"
followed by the gerund or 'verbnoun', e.g. in Welsh:

mae hi wedi  canu
is she after singing  = She has sung [present perfect]

roedd hi wedi  canu
 was she after singing = She had sung [past perfect]

   Bydd hi  wedi canu
Will-be she after singing = She will have sung [future perfect]
etc.

This could clearly be developed, using a preposition meaning 'before', to
produce a fully-fledged system of prospective tense forms.

Although not part of "Welsh-English", the equivalent is common in AngloIrish:
She is after singing (she has sung)
She was after singing (she had sung)
etc.

If this is not like, then "through" could be used.  I have come usages such as:
She is through singing
she was through singing

Or even:
She is done singing
She was done singining
Tho the perfect aspect might, maybe, be a bit too final with "done".

Just some ideas.

Ray.



=========================================
A mind which thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language.
                     [J.G. Hamann 1760]
=========================================

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