Re: 3rd-person imperative

From: "James Campbell"

> Jameld has a feature that is surely not unique, yet I don't recall seeing
it
> elsewhere in any other lang. This is the fact that the imperative is not
> restricted to the 2nd person.
> In Jameld, to form the imperative, the <e> of the pronoun is changed to
<ë>
> and the amended pronoun is then suffixed to the verb stem, thus:
> To eat       Mesten
> You eat      Ye mest
> Eat[, you]!  Mestyë!
> but also:
> We eat       Ven mest
> Let's eat    Mestvën
> They eat     Tem mest
> "Let them eat cake"   »Mesttëm kohk«
> Psalm 43:3
> "Send out your light and your truth. May these themselves lead me."
> »Zendyë ot yeü right und yeü sïdinas. Lïdhtëmt ime.«
>                                       ^^^^^^^^
>                           lead-IMP, 3PL inanimate (pron. is temt, not tem)
> I was translating this verse yesterday that made me think about this
> feature, and wonder: what other langs do this?
With the conflation of the subjunctive and the imperative in some of the
Romance langs, one *might* argue that they have third person imperatives.

Vaya con Díos. (originally a 3rd person since Vd. is "vuestra merced", but
still 2nd person in meaning)  Go with God.
Vayamos con Díos.  Let's go with God.
Vayan con Díos. Y'all go with God.

Adding "que" captures some of that "may..." or "let..." meaning, but isn't
always necessary:

Viva el Papa. Long live the Pope.

Que llueva.  Let it rain. Would it would rain.

I once heard a very patient Spanish-speaking mother reign in a petulant
child with a "Que tú vengas" ("Why don't you get over here [before I start
counting to three].") as opposed to the more direct "Ven" ("Get over
here!"). Is the former an imperative? You decide.

Since the imperative and the subjunctive only part company in the familiar
"tú" and "vosotros" forms in the affirmative (subjunctive in the negative,
right Carlos?), and the "may this...", "let this..." structures are also
subjunctive, why not say there are third person imperatives? I should
imagine that Italian and Portugues operate similarly; French works a little
differently.
__________

Now on to Géarthnuns:

The first and third person imperatives you're describing are covered under
the hortative mood:

Makhlama la glor.
we-nom/pl pres eat-hort
Let's eat.

as opposed to:

Makhlama la glozh.
They are eating.

Rheth la sa zçansat glor.
they-nom/pl pres a/some cake-acc eat-hort
Let them eat cake.

as opposed to:

Rheth la sa zçansat glozh.
They're eating cake.

(Your third example doesn't necessarily apply, since some of the
translations in various languages I looked up translate it as "Send your
light and your truth, that they might lead me" or variations thereof [like:
"they will lead me"]. So it looks like the jury is out on the actual Hebrew
here [or maybe all interpretations are possible in Hebrew and we're forced
to choose depending on lang].)

However, Géarthnuns has what it considers a "third person imperative".
Normally, the imperative is marked on the verb with a prefix, "hü-":

Öçek la chau slarsaut hüröth.
you-nom pres the dishes-acc wash-imp
Wash the dishes (said to one person).

What Géarthnuns calls the third person imperative comes into play with
indirect commands:

Sí lé söbök, gü söb la chau slarsaut hüröth sho, ngamath.
I-nom past he-dat, that he-nom pres the dishes-acc wash-imp SHO, say
I told him to wash the dishes.

So while the imperative is normally associated with 2nd person pronouns
(öçek [sing], skom [dual], or kfazh [pl]) in the direct command forms:

Öçek la hüröth. Wash (sing)!
Skom la hüröth. Wash (you two)!
Kfazh la hüröth. (Y'all) wash!

in indirect commands, any person is possible:

Söb lé (makhlamal), gü makhlama la chau slarsaut hüröth sho, ngamath.
He told us to wash the dishes.

Makhlama lé (rhethel), gü rheth la chau slarsaut hüröth sho, ngamath.
We told them to do the dishes.

Rheth lé Íöhansak, gü söb la chau slarsaut hüröth sho, ngamath.
They told John to do the dishes.

and so on...

The datives in parentheses are optional, especially in affirmative
sentences. They're optional in negative sentences, too, but to lesser
degree, as Géarthnuns enjoys showing explicitly the shift in "polarity"
(affirmative nouns to negetive nouns and vice versa):

Rheth lé (söbök), gü sökh la vau slamsauch hüröth sho, ngamath.
they-nom past John-dat, that he-nom/neg pres the/neg dishes-acc/neg wash-imp
SHO, say
They told him not to do the dishes.

Kou