Theiling Online    Sitemap    Conlang Mailing List HQ   

Re: Optimum number of symbols

From:Jake X <alwaysawake247@...>
Date:Thursday, May 23, 2002, 13:16
I was wondering where I could find that! So now I understand X-SAMPA. So
there! **[B/]** I always wanted to do that!

Jake

~Patient is the procrastinator.~

>From: Kendra <kendra@...> >Reply-To: Constructed Languages List <CONLANG@...> >To: CONLANG@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU >Subject: Re: Optimum number of symbols >Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 19:40:55 -0700 > > > > In that case, though, what's all this /Q/ and /a/ business? I can >figure > > > out > > > some of it from context, but would like to know I'm getting them >right. > > > > You're talking about the phonemic notation? Well, that's a long story, >but >to > > make it short there is an alphabet called the IPA used to transcribe >sounds > > accurately. Since it features plenty of characters that ASCII doesn't >have, > > various transcription systems have been created to be able to write IPA >on > > media like e-mail. You can find a description of the different ASCII-IPA > > transcriptions here: http://www.cs.brown.edu/~dpb/ascii-ipa.html. Here >the >most > > commonly used system is X-SAMPA, an extension of SAMPA to include the >full >IPA > > (but some people prefer the Kirshenbaum system). To learn what sounds >the >IPA > > characters refer to, you can go to this page: > > http://www.ling.hf.ntnu.no/ipa/full/. > > >[snip for brevity] > > If you never saw those things before, my explanation is probably >extremely > > confusing. Don't worry about it, those things are so much used on the >list >that > > you will get used to it fast. But I do urge you to learn the IPA and at >least X- > > SAMPA, or you'll never be able to understand what goes between slashes >or > > brackets, which is important if you want to have an idea of how other >people's > > conlangs sound like, or if you want to explain us how your conlang(s) >sound > > like. > > > >Ah, thank you very much! I am (somewhat) familiar with the IPA, actually. >I don't use it a lot to describe pronunciation, th ough, because so few >people have ever heard of it... I tend to describe things in the terms of >in >which words they are present. > > > > Heheh, that answers my question. My train of thought is basically that > > > it's > > > easier to memorize words as a whole than their parts, which then leads > > > to > > > parts (syllables), which then leads to letters. > > > > It's indeed how we read, even people who use alphabets. We don't read >letter by > > letter, except uncommon words, but by the general shape of the word. > >True. that's probably why I read so quickly, and why I trip over sentences >which contain words I don't see used very often... > > > > > Well, Chinese has quite an expansive vocabulary, and yet uses ideograms. >But > > first ideograms don't correspond to words but to morphemes, so when you >have > > compounds or bimorphemic words you use two ideograms to write them down, >and > > even then you arrive at nearly 5000 characters (at least the ones >commonly > > used) and Chinese people seem to have no problem with it :)) . > > > >Also true, but I think english has a hideously large vocabulary compared to >other languages, though I could be mistaken. > > > > French in general is crazy. It seems like it's all vowels to me. > > > > Well, being French, I can tell you it's not :)) . We have nice consonant > > clusters too (try "psychologue", remembering that the 'p' is pronounced >:)) ). > > >Maybe it's my teacher. He seems to drop an amazing amount of consonants, >but >doesn't correct people when they pronounce them. Bleah ;) I wish I had as >many french speaking friends as I do German speaking friends... >Though, my german speaking friends make fun of my r's. :P > > > It took me less than a day to learn both Japanese syllabaries, and I >still >can > >read them correctly (though writing is another story. I recognise the > >characters, but can't remember them when needed for writing :)) ). On the >other > >hand, I still have difficulties with Cyrillic, despite its similarities >with > >the Greek and Roman alphabets that I know, and I still don't master the >Arabic > >script (alphabetic, at least for the consonants), even the isolated >forms. >And > >it's not a problem of time spent on it or interest (I spent much more >time > >learning Arabic and the Arabic script than Japanese in my life, and I >find >the > >Arabic script one of the most beautiful of the world, more than the >Japanese > >syllabaries :)) ). > >Same here, though for some reason I really like Japanese. I've never >actually sat down and tried to learn the Japanese syllabaries, just picked >them up (through osmosis or who knows what,) which is what makes me think >they're relatively simple and intuitive. >I can't write to save my life though. I get the two alphabets mixed up and >give my literate friends headaches. :) > > > > You did well. In fact, since there is a 100 mail per day limit on the >list, > > multiple replies are rather advisable. The only problem may come then >from >the > > title, since many people on the list decide from the title whether they >are > > gonna read the post or not (I don't do that myself. I read everything >and > > anything that comes from the list :)) ). > > > >Yeah, I'm only responding to the "optimum number of symbols" e-mails in >this >e-mail, for instance. I think that would get much too confusing. I >practically die when I get home and see 74 unread messages. But they're all >worth reading :) I will continue to combine posts because I don't think I >have enough to say to warrant seperate posts at this point. ;) > >I feel like I'm wandering off topic, but I really want to know: How does >one >use the IPA extensions in unicode [in html, even]? It's frustrating me that >I can't use the sassy n-with-a-tail, because I really like that better than >q (which is the Tiri'n transliteration for 'ng', which appears to be N in >the ASCII thing. Fancy!) > > > > (1) Written English and French are basically phonemic, but contain > > nonphonemic characteristics whose complexity present great > > difficulties in both learning and usage; therefore phonemic > > systems aren't all they're cracked up to be. > >Am I wrong to think this has more to do with the fact that spelling is >standardized, while pronunciation changes continually, which is no fault of >the system itself? I'd think that syllabic systems would behave similarly, >were such changes present, though I'm not edumacated enough to know so. > > > on morphemics and written French's overbearing insistence on > > marking inflections long since disappeared from speech, while > >I failed a quiz on passé compose for this specific reason. Damn you, "Les >autres patineuses sont tombées!" Damn you and your outdated gender roles! >(I >love french, don't get me wrong, but... man) > >-Kendra
_________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com