Re: Stupid questions

it makes more sense to understand and explain cases like ergativity in
correlation with other similar cases.
JBR explained it nicely and fool-proof with colors on his  homepage:
http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/ranto.html#4
look under the section "CASES" at the bottom of the page.

--
Agent = "Subject" of a transitive verb ("we saw Sam")
Experiencer = Argument of an intransitive verb ("we waited")
Patient = "Object" of a transitive verb ("Sam saw us")

[snip]

D) the orthodox Indo-European approach; two cases, Nominative (= Nonpatient)
versus Accusative (= Patient).
Agent / Experiencer treated alike as Nominative case
Patient distinguished as Accusative case
(In English, for instance, Nominatives go before the verb and Accusatives after.)
--
so in english we dont distinguish between Agent and Experiencer its
both represented with the nominative case.


regards,
c.s.

MT> From: "Steve Kramer" <scooter@...>
>> I am not a linguist, nor do I play one on TV, so for me the construction
MT> of my
>> language has been a combination learning experience and artistic pursuit.
MT> (I
>> consider this a very *good* thing, btw.)  And I have done my best to
MT> educate
>> myself before bringing stupid questions to the list...however, I'm not
MT> quite
>> able to understand some of what's going on, and I'd appreciate any help
>>from the
>> list's more educated members.
>>
>> 1. I've noticed the term "ergative" used to describe some languages, but
MT> I'm
>> not able to find a definition or, more importantly for me, an example.  Is
MT> there
>> anyone who could explain the concept?
MT> "Ergative" means a case that is entirely devoted to expressing the agent
MT> ("A") of an action (<erg-> 'work', so something like 'worker').  This is
MT> specially contrasted to "nominative", where the case of A _also_ expresses
MT> the subject of a statement ("S").

MT> In English, you have "X.nom hit Y.acc; Y.nom cried."
MT> In an ergative language it'd be more like "X.erg hit Y.abs; Y.abs cried."

MT> (Absolutive is a case that represents both S and "P", the patient of an
MT> action.  Accusative only represents P.)

MT> At least, that's how I understand it.

>> 2. Similarly, I've noticed that there's an ASCII translation for the
MT> sounds of
>> the IPA, which I've only recently discovered.  Unfortunately, I don't know
MT> all
>> the sounds represented by the IPA, and the one Web page I found which
MT> gives the
>> ASCII equivalents was rather opaque for me.  Are there any layman's
MT> explanations
>> available, perhaps with references to sounds in relatively common
MT> languages?

MT> There's a program called "IPA-Help" you can download.
MT> http://www.sil.org/computing/catalog/ipahelp.html

MT> It has example sound files for all the symbols in the chart, as well as a
MT> bunch of natlang examples.

MT>     *Muke!


"rurmlor entflöt, fluppseveri trimel akre wopel larf."
- alte redensart

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