Re: Have Had, Had Have (Was Re: Posting limits)

David Peterson wrote:
>    Tristan wrote:
>
> <<(If Philip had've
> said 'Rhode Island', I would've had no trouble, so it'd be more like
> some oißlender not knowing where NT---the Northern Territory---was. But
> even then, that wouldn't worry me.>>
>
> I'm not sure if you realized you wrote this, or if it was an accident,
> but you just gave me some evidence of something I say exists,
I certainly didn't start writing by saying 'I want to use two modal
haves'. I never realised it was an issue, I just said something that
meant what I wanted to say.

>but
> no one in the department believes exist: Using *two* modal "have"'s.
> I do it often when I say something like, "I would've had to've had eaten".
That's getting a shade bizarre. Seems like someone's trying to be extra
complicated :) W/out the second 'had' and I could pass it, though.

> And above you wrote: "If Philip had've said..."
Well, I don't think I used two model 'haves' there. I think the first
time, i used a modal have, and the second time is used -'ve. I'm sure
the fact that -'ve is often spelt as 'of' suggests *something*.

In 'would've had', I don't think it's a modal so I'm assuming it's not
an issue here :)

>The intention is (I
> believe):
> (1) To reference a time in the past; (2) with respect to that time in
> the past,
> to reference a time *further*in the past; and (3) within *that* time frame,
> reference a completed action, with respect to the second time frame.  Is
> that right?
Well, to me, it was clearly past hypothetical (or whatever the proper
name for that is... subjunctive?). I think 'if' crops up all the time
with 'had've'. Certainly seems more natural than the alternative without
the -'ve. So:

(1) to reference a time in the past; (2) with respect to that time in
the past, to reference an event that could've but didn't happen.

BTW: try googling for had've (5020), "had of", "had have" etc.
(w/quotes). You might find something useful---but not all the time!)

--
Tristan.                 |       To be nobody-but-yourself in a world
kesuari at yahoo!.com.au |  which is doing its best to, night and day,
                          |                 to make you everybody else---
                          |          means to fight the hardest battle
                          |            which any human being can fight;
                          |                    and never stop fighting.
                          |      --- E. E. Cummings, "A Miscellany"