[mAr\k r\o_Ut]:
> > > Mine as well. They've had five years, and they still don't understand
the
> > > difference, when our teacher pronounces it, between schon and schön.
> > > It's horrible.
>
> Don't be too hard on them. Past a certain age people lose their natural
> ability to hear distinctions that don't exist in their native language.
> At that point they have to more or less consciously analyze the sounds
> at a different level than normal language processing takes place. They
> can get accustomed to this process and internalize it to the point where
> it's automatic, and eventually it can even happen at the same level as
> native phoneme recognition, but that takes a long time and a lot of
> effort. And in some cases it just can't be done; plenty of examples of
> well-educated, linguistically sophisitcated Japenese adults trying very
> hard to hear the l/r distinction in English and being completely unable
> to do so, no matter how slowly the tape is played or how carefully they
> listen.
Maybe I assume they should be able to, just because I was. We began
learning
German at the same ages, so if age 12 is below the phoneme cutoff point then
they should hear the difference, and if not then I should miss the
distinction too.
I think the difference is more whether one hears the phoneme equivalent in
their
L1 or the actual sound being produced. I think you have to train yourself
to
listen a certain way.
>
> > > That and their awful American |r|s.
>
> The American 'r' is not awful, just different. So different that I
> teach students of Spanish to pretend that the Spanish 'r' isn't an a
> 'r' at all, but rather a type of 'd'. [pEdo] sounds a lot more like
> [pEro] than [pE`r\o] does. Of course, you run the risk of confusion
> with "pedo", but since that's properly pronounced [pEDo] it's a low
> risk.
That makes sense. I meant that the American |r| was awful in a
German context because my ear is expecting a certain kind of sound
and it gets one very different. Once again, kinds of listening.
You are teaching your students to hear in terms of English,
I believe that it's still possible to hear the sounds in terms of
Spanish. But of course it depends on the student.
> > What really gets me annoyed are the people in my Japanese class, who
read
> > the romanization as though it were English, even right after they've
been
> > corrected by our sensei! Of course, I blame this on the fact that our
book
> > uses romanization, and that our book uses a really odd romanization
("si"
> > instead of "shi", and "zi" instead of "ji". Of course, this causes all
sorts
> > of problems).
>
> That's not odd or bad, just phonemic. The [s] of "sa" and the [S] of
"s(h)i"
> are the same phoneme in Japanese, and the same thing goes for z/j and
> f/h. As in English, there are etymological hints at the phonemic level
> which can help you figure out what a word means, which are lost in a
> completely phonetic Romanization.
>
>
> > "taberu n desu". I pronounce it, emulating my sensei as best I can, as
> > [tabe4MndEs:] (forgiving my horrible IPAing)
>
> More like [tabe4Mn=dEs:]; the n is syllabic.
>
> > Why is it that some people seem unable to read things as something other
> > than their native language?
>
> It's more the case that some people have more ability to do so, and that
> is largely a function of the degree to which you're exposed to other
> languages while growing up.
That probably accounts for it in myself. Maybe I should be more
open-minded.
I grew up around my mother translating Japanese technical manuals in
her office in the next room. ;-)
Jake