Re: OT: Composing (jara: My girlfriend is a conlanger!)
| From: | H. S. Teoh <hsteoh@...> |
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| Date: | Sunday, March 16, 2003, 0:43 |
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On Sat, Mar 15, 2003 at 02:24:29PM +0000, Jan van Steenbergen wrote:
> --- H. S. Teoh skrzypszy:
>
> > I'm not sure I'm ready to write for orchestra either, but that doesn't
> > stop it from being my passion! :-)
>
> I can understand that. Orchestral music used to be my passion too (before I
> started writing myself), but after I discovered the joys of chamber and choral
> music, that interest faded away somewhat.
I've personally never grokked choral music. I have heard a few good ones,
and I do like them; but for some reason, they just don't have the draw
that purely instrumental pieces have for me. I do like chamber pieces too;
one of my utter favorites is Dvorak's Sonatina in G for violin and piano,
op.100. It's technically quite simple, since he wrote it for the technical
abilities of his children at the time. But it's just so very Dvorak, and I
just love it dearly.
> BTW, it is not entirely true that I never wrote for orchestra. A few
> years ago I wrote a Concertino for Strings, a neo-baroque piece with a
> lot of reminiscenses of Bach and Vivaldi, including a few quotations,
> but also a lot of 7/8 measures and the like.
I've written pieces with odd meters, but not at all frequently. That
quartet piece I was talking about had a (incomplete) movement that has
a passage in 6/8 superimposed with 9/8.
> Besides, the last (unfinished) piece I have been working on is for choir
> and ten instruments (2 oboes, bass clarinet, horn, string quartet,
> double bass, and piano). Not exactly an orchestra, but sometimes it
> feels like that :)
Well, I consider that a miniature orchestra. :-)
> > In my case, I'm more of a neoclassicist than anything else.
>
> Haha, I can hear that!
I've always been a neoclassicist... my favorite music is Beethoven and
Romantic era music, plus post-romantics like Sibelius. I've never been
into avant garde stuff... in fact, that unconventional piece I was talking
about was originally a mockery of people who write avant garde just 'cos
it's cool, but have no idea what they're doing.
> > As far as stuff for smaller ensembles go... I do have a lot of small piano
> > pieces[4], as well as an unfinished set of variations for string quartet.
> > (But I hesitate to showcase that one since I had very little idea about
> > quartet writing when I wrote it.)
>
> You ask me? Quartet writing is about counterpoint. It is "my second
> favourite thing in the [musical] universe", which helps to explain why I
> wrote two string quartets myself:
I've always loved counterpoint (Mozart's Jupiter symphony is awesome in
this regard), but I've always been quite unable to produce any good ones
myself. :-(
> - the first was written in 1996, my first "real" piece. It was inspired by
> mediaeval music, especially the French "ars subtilior". My ambition was to
[snip]
Interesting.
> - the second was written in 1999. A short piece (4') written as an in
> memoriam after someone's death. I still consider it my best piece,
> although it is darker than most of my other music. I was performed
> twice.
4' is short?! lol... as far as darker pieces are concerned, I've played
very dark pieces at the piano during the times when I was going through
personal difficulties. But I've never written any of them down. I still
remember one time when I was in the 3rd mvmt of a dark piece, pervaded
with minor 2nd (dis)chords in the high register, and somebody came up to
me and asked, are you *really* feeling like that right now??
> > The Serenity piece referenced in [1] is also in this category, I suppose,
> > it's for piano and flute---although it's probably better suited for an
> > alto flute or clarinet because of its tessitura. Or maybe a recorder. At
> > any rate, it's for some kind of pipe. :-)
>
> How about a saxophone? Would that work, too?
No, at least not if played according to current saxophone practices. It
might work if played the way Sax intended them to be. ;-)
> > [1] Such as:
http://quickfur.yi.org:8080/~hsteoh/mus/aml-serenity.mp3
> > This is supposed to depict a village shaman playing the flute at sunset
> > while looking out over the plains and the distant mountains beyond, with
> > the evening breeze blowing. The cadenza depicts when he gets carried away
> > by the magic of his flute, and proceeds to show off his flute technique.
>
> I can't download it :(( . It says: "access forbidden". Please, oh please, fix
> that! I am very eager to hear it ;)
> > [2] Involving slides and glides by the string section (which plays a
> > "melody" where almost every note is a glide) and retorts, guffaws, and
> > maniacal chuckles from the brass.
>
> Yay! Go on with it!
I'll see about that. :-) Right now, it's somewhere at the bottom of my
priority list... and it's my version of the Carnival of the Animals, if
you will. It is supposed to be a sarcastic mockery of "composers" who go
avant garde just 'cos it's cool, but have no idea what they're doing. My
reaction to that has always been, you guys are old; *I* am the most avant
garde of all, 'cos I write neoclassical music in a time when nobody else
would.
> > [3] Such as:
http://quickfur.yi.org:8080/~hsteoh/mus/Am6_8_2.mp3
> > (unfinished). I don't really like the MIDI realization of this; the part
> > towards the end sounds overly wind-y. The orchestration also needs heavy
> > re-workings; but at least this gives an idea of the motifs and passages
> > that I have in mind.
>
> Unfinished? Why? I don't know if you recorded the whole piece, but my
> impression is that the piece is quite finished the way it is.
Well, in that case, I probably failed horribly. :-( What you hear is
supposed to be an exposition only; the unfinished repeat you hear is
actually the beginnings of the development section. (It's supposed to be a
"false" da capo which turns out to be a development instead.)
> If I may give you one piece of unsollicited advise: forget about the da
> capo; IMO it is not necessary, because the piece already has its
> beginning and end.
Except that there is a lot more to come. But the fact that you perceive it
as complete probably indicates that I've built up too strong a climax,
which probably should be reserved for the real ending instead.
> I remember I had the same problem in a piece once, and in that case is
> was mostly due to the fact that I had some more ideas that I wanted to
> use. But I got hopelessly stuck in a da capo. Only after my father
> convinced me that it was good enough already, I decided to leave it the
> way it was, and save the ideas for possible later compositions.
I exhibit that problem when improvising at the piano; my capos are usually
overly drawn out (like Beethoven's :-P).
> BTW Did you record it on a Yamaha PSR-SQ? That's what I have been
> working with most of the time, and the sound is somewhat similar. I am
> curious how you transformed the midi files into .MP3 files.
Actually, I painstakingly notated the whole thing and turned it into an
mp3 by means of a software MIDI synth and LAME (a free, high-quality mp3
encoder).
Why, thank you.
> It made me wake up in a very good mood this morning, which for me is
> already enough to prove its value. My Musicmatch MP3 player has been
> playing both pieces in a loop for quite some time, and still I don't
> find them boring. Marina says that both pieces are very
> well-structured. She has been (ab)using your music for a dance with the
> baby ;)
Oh, I'm glad somebody can appreciate it! :-) The main ideas of the
Sonatina was in fact worked out at the piano in one sitting. (I have a
history of writing really good pieces in sudden impulsees of inspiration,
and lots of mediocre stuff which I refuse to let go but which go nowhere
no matter how I try.) Of course, that initial attempt was very short, but
it contained the motifs for the two subjects. After that, it took about a
week to expand the material, add a bridge, to make an exposition, and work
out a development and add a coda. And then perhaps two more weeks to
polish it off.
Now the A minor piece... I'm not surprised it's suited for baby dances; it
*is* supposed to be a cute, march-like piece. The development section
(which unfortunately I've never notated yet) even has a starry night
section... ;-)
> > For example, Beethoven didn't actually know polyphony (at least in the
> > Bach sense) until he was an established composer.
>
> Hehe. Sometimes I wonder it he actually knew about polyphony even after he
> became an established composer :) .
LOL!
[snip]
> > Most certainly. And I do have a beef against the way music is commonly
> > taught nowadays... but I'll save that rant for another time. :-)
>
> I fullheartedly agree! There has been a period during which I wanted to
> study composition, but then I heard a concert with music of this
> professor's students. My God! I can't remember which piece was the
> ugliest, but I remember that everything on the program was equally
> pompous, disgusting, ugly, and would-be avantgardistic.
Ah yes. The much feared eardrum-splitting contests. Sometimes I wonder if
these would-be avant garde "composers" even had any sense of music at all.
Even though I'm clearly biased to music of earlier periods, I do
appreciate modern, nontonal music _when it's done musically_. As opposed
to being a mechanical exercise in the latest theory of serialism.
> The same professor told me, that my music was "not contemporary enough"
> in his opinion. He even accused me of "rhythmic tonality"!
Then I would suggest he read the introduction to Samuel Adler's "The Study
of Orchestration." The high tide is receding. Real contemporary composers
are turning back to traditional forms and methods, albeit with a lot more
at their disposal than in earlier music eras.
Sometimes that's what I feel like: the rich history of Western music has
in a sense culminated its exploration in the "modern" era; now I feel like
these are all tools which I can use and even mix freely to express my
musical ideas. I've been told that some of my odder pieces sound like
Mozart and Stravinsky (or one of the "modern" composers) smashed together
in a self-contradictory paradox. But in a sense, I like it just the way it
is... it's a mosaic of different eras. I don't see anything wrong with it,
at least it is of more entertainment value than the so-called avant garde
folks.
> The whole problem is that these professors, who were raised in the
> fifties and sixties, expect their students to be innovative and to start
> an entire revolution with every piece they write. Apart from the fact
> that it is extremely difficult to be innovative these days (since
> everything that is even remotely thinkable has already been done... call
> it musical anadewism),
That's more like maniadewism. :-P
[snip]
> I have great respect for true avantgarde composers, who can nevertheless
> manage to touch you.
Exactly!!!! I personally don't have a problem with atonal stuff, it's when
it's missing musicality that it's just disgusting. I mean, it's the same
thing as writing a bad piece with Alberti bass. It's not which musical
idiom you write in, but whether you have anything worthwhile to say or
not, musically speaking.
> Last week I heard a piece by Scelsi in the Concertgebouw, and I was
> thrilled from the first till the last note.
Ah, a fine orchestra, that. I am particularly moved by Bernard Haitink's
interpretation of Shostakovich's 8th with the Royal Concertgebouw Orch.
Very powerful. (Of course, the music itself is powerful, but I *have*
heard powerful music like Beethoven's 5th sound like a toy march when in
the wrong hands. Or Tchaikovsky's Pathetique sounding like a leaking
balloon. Etc..)
> Same thing with Xenakis. But when less talented people start to write
> like that, the result is usually pure horror.
Yep.
The usual excuse I hear is that they're just trying to depict horror.
Well, I've a hard time believing that people are so horrific that you need
to have *so* many pieces just to depict horror in all its gory details.
:-P
> So I went my own way, at last...
Yep. I particularly admire Beethoven, Dvorak, and Sibelius, because they
dared to write music in their own style. Not like the would-be "composers"
who just follow others without adding any value whatsoever.
> Hm. Looks like I stole your rant...
And I took it back. :-P
[snip]
> Exactly the same thing here! I have been considering several options to
> become a professional musician at a late stage: going to a conservatory
> and study composition or singing (which are about the only things that
> you can still learn when you start at the age of 18), taking private
> lessons in composition... I never did these things, but I have been
> writing, writing, writing instead. Now I don't have any diploma, but at
> least I have something to show.
Yes. I have at least a few good pieces to show as well. But I am still
considering taking a composition course in the local conservatory this
fall. Just so I have some official recognition in the form of a sheet of
wood fibres. ;-)
> > Besides, I do have other priorities that require time as well; I can't
> > have *everything* I want, after all. With my current commitments, I'm
> > afraid the most I'll end up writing in my lifetime would be about 4-5
> > short pieces (as far as orchestral writing is concerned, that is) that
> > I've time to work on.
>
> Yeah, that's the problem when you grow up :(( . If I start composing
> again (which I sincerily hope), that will mean that I can forget about
> my conlanging. I hate it to be forced to this kind of choice, but
> little can be done.
For me it's a lot worse... even just counting my hobbies alone, that
covers conlanging, programming, Linux development, composing, all of which
require intensive thought and extensive time.
> > All the lay people tell me my music is good, and all the professionals
> > smile and nod and walk away. So I'm kinda stuck in limbo at the moment.
>
> Don't let that discourage you! Which one is more important: the opinion
> of the audience or the opinion of other composers? Unfortunately, the
> latter are often motivated by the ideology they adhere to. And one of
> the most common ideas among contemporary composers, the performers of
> their music, and the critics who hallow them, is like: if too many
> people like it, that means that it is commercial, and therefore bad.
Now, I *do* agree that generally speaking, I distrust crowd followings and
hype. But, as Carl Sagan (IIRC) put it: they laughed at Einstein, but they
also laughed at Bozo the Clown. Although generally I am suspicious of
overly popular things, that alone is certainly not sufficient grounds to
dismiss it altogether!
And I don't understand what's with this obsession of "contemporary"
composers to alienate their audience just so they aren't "commercial".
That's just biting the hand that feeds you.
> Unfortunately, I heard these opinions expressed also by composers whom I
> used to respect deeply for their music. That does not mean that their
> opinion is worthless, but better listen to people who are at least
> open-minded: composers, performers, ánd audience...
Indeed. The irony is that the avant garde folk are supposed to be the
open-minded ones. As one of the quotes in my sig file says, "try to keep
an open mind, but not so open your brain falls out".
> What does "stuck in limbo" mean, BTW?
Means stuck neither here nor there. (At least, that's the meaning I
intended... I wasn't aware of the Catholic origins of the idiom. :-P)
[snip]
> > said *could*. ;-)) The fact that I'm an amateur pianist---amateur in the
> > sense of able to impress the crowd but having horrible technique and bad
> > habits accrued over the years due to lack of formal training---probably
> > doesn't help very much either.
>
> True. It surely helps a composer when he is a performer too, not only
> because he can perform his own music, but also because he more likely to
> know the right people, and also because he is already sort of known for
> his playing.
[snip]
Unfortunately I'm not even competent enough to perform my own Sonatina
without slipping up. And it's not exactly a technically challenging piece.
T
--
Ph.D. = Permanent head Damage
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