Re: OT: Spanish pronouns ("usted", etc.)

Javier, that was some very interesting stuff about Spanish; much of
it I wasn't aware of, although I majored in it!

On May 17, 2007, at 5:45 PM, Javier BF wrote:
> 1st person singular
[...]
> - "menda" (very informal/vulgar, 3rd-person agreement, usually though
> not necessarily preceded by an article or demonstrative, which allows
> gender distinction: "[el/este/un] menda" (I male), "[la/esta/una]
> menda"
> (I female); it can also be used to refer to an indeterminate 3rd
> person;
> the word is originally from Caló, the Spanish-Romani dialect of
> Spanish
> gypsies, and appears to have been the dative form of the 1st person
> pronoun, thus sharing origin with Spanish/English forms like "me")
What kind of distribution does "menda" have? I assume you mean it's
now used by non-Romani.

>
>
> 1st person plural
>
> - "nosotros" (male or gender-neutral)
[...]
> 2nd person plural
>
> - "vosotros" (informal, male or gender-neutral, currently used only
> in Spain)
So someone speaking on behalf of a group of all women might say
"nosotros"? That's not the way I learned it, but that doesn't
surprise me :)

[...]
> 3rd person singular
>
> - "él" (male or gender-neutral)
>
> - "ella" (female only)
>
> - "ello" (neuter, usage limited to abstractions)
>
>
> 3rd person plural
>
> - "ellos" (male or gender-neutral)
>
> - "ellas" (female only)
But "él"/"ellos"/"ella"/"ellas" are used for masculine and feminine
inanimate objects, right?

[...]
> Additionally, the form "se" has many other uses apart from
> 3rd-person reflexive, such as marking medial-voice and
> impersonal verbal forms; particularly, it replaces the dative
> "le[s]" when followed by an accusative to avoid cacophonic
> alliteration (*le las doy > se las doy, *les lo dije > se lo dije).
Is that a mainstream interpretation of the allophones? As I
understand it, etymologically, "se lo" etc. come from ILLI ILLUM etc.
by mostly regular sound changes, without avoidance of cacophony as a
"motivation". On the other hand, if at some point both *"le lo" and
"se lo" were available to speakers, they might commonly choose "se
lo" for that reason.

> Since this causes the number distinction of the dative to be
> lost, in Latin American dialects it prompts the accusative to
> take the plural mark of the dative (*les lo dije > se los dije).
Wow; that's cool.

> So, in a word, the system of personal pronouns of my native
> language is *weird*. :o)
Quite interesting, and more complex than it might seem.