Re: CHAT: t-shirt

> From: Raymond Brown
>
> > > From: Yoon Ha Lee <yl112@...>
> > >
> > >Would an auxlanger by offended by Tolkien?
>
> > From: Lars Henrik Mathiesen
> >
> >I think some are,
>
> My own sad experience in Auxland leads to me be certain that you
> are correct.
Well, I don't think we need please those in Auxland who are not also on this
list.  Since this list is predominately an artlang list, I can't imagine
anyone here being offended by Tolkien.

> >On the other hand, we offend people of that persuasion just by being
> >here; including Tolkien won't make any difference in their opinion of
> >the T-shirt.
>
> Exactly - my own feeling is that we ignore the quarelsome pettiness of
> auxlangers.  Let them design their own T-Shirt (if they can ;)
The image of herding cats comes to mind.

> >My personal opinion, in the view of what happened last, is that an
> >official CONLANG project should officially exclude _all_ IAL projects,
> >whether succesful in the modern timeframe or not.
>
> But here I unwillingly part company with Lars.  ConIALs are conlangs (as
> opposed to natIALs like Akkadian & English).  To exclude any conIAL seems
> to me to be allowing ranting auxlangers to determine what we do.  To hell
> with them, I say!
>
> My own opinion is that we include a conlang because it is a _conlang_ and
> meets the criteria by which we judge any conlang, irrespective of any
> classificatory label, to be worthy of inclusion.
I fear this is the gate that caused the flood that resulted in the drowning
of the last attempt at a conlang T-shirt.

> >No Lingua Ignota, no
> >SolReSol, no volap¸k, no Esperanto, no Glosa. No Novial, Speedwords
>
> I agree on no Glosa, no Novial & no Speedwords.  Their inventors
> are not on
> this list and these languages are little known outside of the
> conlang/auxlang worlds.
Well, I don't think Hildegard ever intended that Lingua Ignota would be an
auxlang, but not enough is known about it (its not called Lingua Ignota for
nothing! :-)) for anyone to construct a coherent sentence anyway, so that
point is moot.  A shame, however, as she may well have been the first
documented conlanger, making Lingua Ignota interesting from an historic
perspective.   SolReSol certainly has an aesthetic appeal and would surely
garner inquiry.  I fear the inclusion of either Esperanto or Volapuek would
open the floodgates, however.

> Esperanto is one of the few conlangs that many a "person in the
> street" has
> actually heard about.  Whatever one thinks of it, it is a 'conlang
> classic'.  IMHO omitting Esperanto is to let the auxlang bigots win.
Perhaps, but this sentiment resulted in the demise of the entire project
last time.  Which is preferable, a T-shirt with many conlangs from this list
as well as Quenya, Sindarin and perhaps SolReSol, or no T-shirt at all
because we couldn't agree which of the auxlangs ought to be included?  I
think the auxlang bigots win in the latter case as well.

> I state my view to show as clearly as I can that my own consideration is
> simply this: "What are the conlangs that non-conlangers may have come
> across or heard about?" As I see it, they are: Esperanto, Quenya, Sindarin
> & Klingon.
I think Quenya, Sindarin and Klingon could meet this requirement without
controversy.

> I admit the "person in the street" is unlikely to have heard of SolReSol -
> but it does seem to me a loss not to see a language written solely in
> musical notation  :)
Agreed.

> >or
> >NGL either, even though some list members may be working on them.
>
> Again I disagree.  I in no way agree with the main aim of NGL, but it is a
> conlang that some members of this list helped to create and,
> therefore, IMO
> ought to be included.
If we were capable of making rational distinctions among auxlangs, we would
already have a shirt.  We couldn't accomplish this last time.  If cooler
heads prevail this time, I'm all for giving it a try, but I think we should
resolve to exclude all auxlangs as soon as a flammable controversy raises
its ugly head.

> >Lojban is a special case --- I don't see it as an IAL project myself
>
> Nor was it - and as some members of this list worked on the creation of
> lojban, it should IMNSHO be included.
Yes, I agree that Lojban is a special case not least because of John's
involvement and the fact that he has been one of the cornerstones of this
list for so many years.

David

David E. Bell
The Gray Wizard
    dbell@graywizard.net
    www.graywizard.net

"Wisdom begins in wonder." - Socrates