Re: CHAT: Being both theologically correct and properly modern

At 7:18 am -0400 11/5/01, John Cowan wrote:
>Raymond Brown scripsit:
>
>> Yes.  But the Latin has _ex Patre natum_ - born from the Father.
>
>In fact, the same syntax as _ex Maria virgine_.  So He is born both from the
>Father and from the mother; presumably the rest of us are likewise
>born from our mother and from our father.
>
_born_ is, I think, the wrong translation of _natum_ in this context and,
it occurred to me, that I should've included the three words following
_natum_.  The full phrase is: ...ex Patre natum ante omnia secula.

The Anglican Book of Common Prayer (1666) translates it:
"...born of the Father before all worlds."
I remember one old timer in the village Church choir pronounced that last
word disyllabically thus: /'wVr@ldz/

But, of course, meanings have changed since then and 'worlds' no longer
mean 'ages' or 'eons'.

For a short time the English translation in the Catholic Church here had:
"...born of the Father before time began."

But when all anglophone countries came together and the translations (I
believe) were harmonized _ante omnia secula_ simply became "eternally".
We now say Sunday by Sunday:
...eternally begotten of the Father"

At any rate the birth from the Father (according to the creed) somewhat
predates that of his incarnation from his mother - so rather different from
us.

But on checking, I find that Classical Latin _(g)nasci (perfect part.
(g)natus) could mean either "to be begotten" or "to be born", i.e. it could
be used of generation by either parent.

The most common construction is with _ex_ + ablative; not quite so common
is _de_ + ablative; rarest is _a/ab_ + ablative (the construction for agent
of a passive).

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At 12:07 pm -0400 11/5/01, bjm10@CORNELL.EDU wrote:
>Okay, found it online:
>
>http://stgeorge.ia.goarch.org/creed.htm
>
>Current points of question:
>
>The word translated twice as "begotten" in English is the same Greek word:
>yennethenta (gennethenta for you savages who insist upon the Erasmian
>nonsense),
Glad to know I'm not a savage   :)

>related to "yennos" of course.  However, "yennao" in Scripture
>is translated as "begotten" and "born" in English, depending upon the sex
>of the parent.
Like the Latin _nascor_ then.

>
>All Orthodox translations from the Greek that I've seen say "and was
>incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary" from "kae sarkwthenta ek
>Pnevmatos ayuu, kae Marias tees Parthenuu".
Tho _ek_ corresponds to Latin _ex_ = "out of, from".  The strict Greek
preposition for the agent would by 'ypo'.

>Note that my transliterations are by ear, since there is no
>transliteration method extant for Ecclesiastic Greek,
No worries - I know exactly what the words are and mentally transliterated
as I read   :)

Efharisto.

Ray.







=========================================
A mind which thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language.
                   [J.G. Hamann 1760]
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