Expressions of distaste (was: CHAT Starbucks (was: Hymn to Ikea etc.))

On Saturday, February 28, 2004, at 09:47 AM, Andreas Johansson wrote:

> Quoting Ray Brown <ray.brown@...>:
[snip]

>> ...and not not spoilt with any milk and certainly NO sugar!
>
> I assume that double negation is not intended?
You assume correctly - 'twas a lapsus manus.

>> And as for that abomination called 'instant coffee' - ach y fi!!
>
> Remind me; is that "ach y fi" Welsh?
Yes.

> It always makes me think of Swedish _usch
> och fy_ ([8S O fy:] in my 'lect), an interjection of distaste.
And the Welsh is also an interjection of disgust - a little more forceful
than English 'ugh', 'yuk' etc!
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On Saturday, February 28, 2004, at 11:16 AM, Andreas Johansson wrote:

> Quoting Christian Thalmann <cinga@...>:
[snip]
>
>> Funny, in Swiss German, there's the rare /{:kXi'pfuj/, probably
>> a fusion of the two interjections of distaste /v{:kX/ and /pfuj/.
>> They don't mean anything.  What do the Welsh and Swedish versions
>> mean?
Good question. 'Ach' or 'Ych' can be used by themselves as expressions of
distaste, rather like Scots 'och' [Ox] may be, or the English 'ugh', 'yuk'
  etc.  The longer form gives it more body, so to speak. I assume it's
written  as three words because *achyfi would imply incorrect stress. But
analyzed as separate words, it's a bit of a puzzler. 'fi' is a mutated
form of 'mi' = "I"/"me" (Welsh has abandoned cases); 'y' has three
different meanings - definite article, relative particle, affirmative
particle before verb 'to be' - none make sense here. All I can say is that
it's idiomatic.

>>  And is the Welsh /AX @ vi:/?
Not quite; Welsh doesn't have [A]. Its's [aX@'vi:]; there's also a variant
"Ych y fi!" [@X@'vi:].

> The Swedish consists of _usch_, also an interjection indicating distate,
> _och_ "and" (one of the more atrociously spelt words in Swedish), and
> _fy_, a
> word indicating disapproval or distaste, the later meaning being relevant
> here.
I wonder if the Welsh expression didn't originate in a similar way, tho
according to my dictionary the Welsh foe English 'fie' is 'ffei' [f@j].
Could *'ach a ffei' have become 'ach y fi'?  Perhaps Silvia's dictionary
can help us.

Ray
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