Re: Neither here nor there.

At 8:21 pm +0000 3/6/01, kam@CARROT.CLARA.NET wrote:
>On Fri, 1 Jun 2001, Jesse stephen bangs <jaspax@...> wrote:
>
[snip]
>>> demonstrative "that thing"--then it hit me.  Praxian does not distinguish
>>> between local and distant!
>
>> This is actually attested in real languages.  Ancient Greek had one word
>> "entautha" meaning "here" or "there," and words "erkhomai" and "eimi"
>> meaning "to come" or "to go."  And they weren't even nomadic ;-).
>
>Odd, most of the languages I've encountered have had either a two way
>(here/there, this/that) split, or a three way system
...and in fact in ancient Greek _entautha_ or its near synonym _enthade_ do
contrast with _ekei_, i.e. there is at least a two-way split.  The latter
decidedly shows distance and means only _there_ or _yonder_.

Although _entautha_ is used both where we may use _here_ or _there_ in
English, it would not be used of remote distance; it's a "localized there",
i.e. not too far from 'here'.  _enthade_ comes more and more to mean
'here'; but if one wanted to be quite specific "here (where I am)", one had
_he:(i)de_ or, in later times, _ho:de_.

The situation, in fact, mirrors the demonstrative pronouns:
general: houtos, haute:, touton (this, that, i.e. French: celui etc)
   near: hode, he:de, tode (this; celui-ci etc)
    far: ekeinos, ekeine:, ekainon (that; celui-là etc)

_entautha_ (enthade) - general
   te:(i)de, ho:de - near
     ekei - far

_eimi_ tends to be used as the future of the horribly suppletive* verb
_ekrhomai_ (I come/go). Indeed, _eimi_ is cognate with the Latin _eo, ire_.
It is true that in Homer & very early Greek texts the verbs are used of
motion either towards or away from the speaker.  This usage cerainly
continues well into the Classical period, as Jesse says.  But the meaning
was made clear by other means, e.g. use compound verbs and the use of cases
whereby:
prep. + accusative - motion towards
prep. + genitive - motion from
(prep. + dative - no motion)

But as the Classical period advances, the more specific meaning "come"
seems to start predominating.  I believe that in Hellenistic Greek,
_erkhomai_ is used solely with the meaning "I come"; certainly that is the
only meaning of _erkhomai_ /'erxome/ in modern Greek (where preps.,
whatever their meaning, take the acc. only).

*
present: _erkhomai_ (middle)
future: _eimi_ (active) or _eleusomai_ (middle)
aorist: _e:lthon_ (active)
perfect: _ele:lutha_ (active)

Ray.




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A mind which thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language.
                   [J.G. Hamann 1760]
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