Re: Cases and Prepositions (amongst others)

Tom Wier wrote:
>
> Robert Hailman wrote:
>
> > So what I want to know is, is there any particular system by which the
> > prepositions are divided up in the case structure, or is it different
> > from language to language, even in languages containing the same cases?
>
> This is a good question.  In answer, you first have to consider what a 'case'
> is.  It is, in point of fact, a label, one we use to describe certain syntactic
> and thematic functions of the morphology a language uses.  It is, of course,
> a very useful label, but it is really nothing more than that.  The 'dative' case
> of Latin and the 'dative' case of German are so called, aside from issues of
> the history of writing grammar, because of a few similarities in the behavior
> of the case -- primarily for both of them, indirect object (the thematic 'goal',
> 'recipient', etc.).   But just because we call them both by the same name by
> no means suggests that we should treat them as if they were the same. They
> are, in fact, entirely distinct cases. To cite another example, Greek's 'dative'
> can be used to show possession, a feature which AFAIK does not exist in
> modern German.  Dyirbal's 'dative' case is even more distinct -- it can be used to
> denote a demoted direct object in antipassive constructions -- but yet it has
> the same name.  So, in short, there is no 'system' that can be used to describe
> what uses can be applies to what cases, by virtue of their being labels.
>
Right. My cases are somewhat similar in use to the German, but there's 7
rather than four, so I'm on my own when it comes to comparing them. I
suppose I'll just have to go with what my case structure suggests to me,
really.

> For this reason, it sometimes happens that linguists or grammarians describing
> languages will use entirely separate labels when they feel that the use is
> sufficiently distinct to warrent this.  Some grammarians of modern English
> prefer to use 'subjective' and 'objective' case instead of the more traditional
> 'nominative' and 'accusative' cases, both because IIRC English 'accusative'
> forms like 'him', 'them' etc are originally Old English datives (someone correct
> me on this if I'm wrong), but also because their modern English usages encompass
> all objects of prepositions,  even coordinated subjects ('John and me are
> gonna go play ball'). [Obviously, that's something of a problem with the
> nomenclature; but this is neither here nor there].
>
I don't think my cases are different enough from what some would
consider the "norm", or "average" usages to require their own names.

> > Another thing, I've got pronouns that mean things like "for that
> > reason", "at some time", "in this manner", and such, and I need to
> > decide what case they would go in.
>
> Perhaps you mean correlative adverbs? For the classic handling of
> a conlang's correlative system, check out Esperanto.
>
Maybe. I've got a word meaning "some time", and it's a pronoun, so I
feel that "at some time" would be that word put in the same case as
nouns in preposition phrases beginning with the preposition equivalent
to the English use of "at" pertaining to time.

> > This kind of ties into the
> > preposition structure, for example a word meaning "at some time" would
> > go in the same case as nouns in a prepositional phrase with a
> > preposition meaning "at".
>
> Sure.  But you need to be careful of relexing English prepositional
> uses into your language's case system.  The rules governing which
> preposition is required in English are often highly idiomatic.  There is
> no reason, as far as I can see, why most American English speakers
> say 'in line', while many New Yorkers say 'on line';  both are bending the
> general meaning of the preposition to a very great degree of abstraction.
> The same can of course be said about other languages:  most English
> speakers would say, I think, 'at this time', while the literal translation
> of the German 'zu dieser Zeit' is 'to this time'.  The same goes for
> phrases like 'at hand', where German uses IIRC 'zu Hand'.
>
I've decided to make my prepositions each have one and only one meaning,
so the English preposition structure won't be very helpful when I do
that, because I'll have to break it down anyways.

> > Again, is there any system to this throughout
> > several languages or do I just have to make my own?
>
> Well, conlanging, except in rare cases like NGL, is ultimately a personal
> endeavor.  You can do whatever you like, really.   There's so much variation
> in human languages that, usually, most things you can think up on your own
> have been done, somewhere (that does not mean, however, it will be common!).
> Try to check out from your local university, or buy, a copy of Comrie's
> _Language Universal and Linguistic Typology_, if you can handle the prose
> style, which is rather thick.  If that's not to your liking, I'm sure there's one
> put out in the Cambridge Linguistics library, which you should be able to find
> at your local mega-bookstore like Barnes and Noble or Border's.  I know the
> Cambridge series has one on case.
I'll check those out, they sound like they could be useful. Meanwhile,
I'll go ahead with it anyways.

--
Robert