Re: CHAT: Phonemic status of English interdentals

On Wed, 9 Oct 2002 17:01:34 +0100
Joe <joe@...> wrote:

> On Wednesday 09 October 2002 11:49 am, you wrote:
> > Roger Mills scripsit:
> > > And
> > > how does it happen that in those dialects where they're pronounced as
> > > stops (and one might suspect, in those dialects, rather minimal
> > > acquaintance with the written form), /T/ is still realized as /t/, /D/ as
> > > /d/?
> > In Ireland, the (dental) stop pronunciation is extremely common, and
> > nothing to do with literacy, you snide Yank.  :-)
Damn, got there before me... I've been 200 messages behind for a few days ;)

Alas, when I was a youngfellow (["jUN%fE_XlE:]), a very impressionable kid. I
deliberately 'fixed' my interdentals to fricatives (probably on account
of hearing my father saying all the time "Don't say [d_ta?], say
[d_tat]". So I said [Dat]. Though now I say [Da?]). I'm currently trying
up undo the damage ;) At least so that I have a choice. My pronunciation
is a bit too snobbish to most Dubliners and gets me into trouble every
now and again. A week ago a guy I met was getting snotty with me when
he (1) heard me speak & (2) heard I was a mathematician (worse, a
[maT@m&tISn=], not a [mat_t@m&tISn=]), It was only when he heard that I
was from Drimnagh ["dZr`ImnE:] that he stopped being a pain.

(By the way, most of the comments on Dublin pronunciation here are about
the speech of working class young (10-30) people, since to me they form the
most easily recognisable accent block)

 Besides even [mat_t@m&tISn=] for [maT@m&tISn=] sounds affected in Dublin, ...
[bU? i:vn= l@Ik mat_t@m&tISn= fEr` maT@m&tISn= s&undz {pOS | Efn="p_h@nsi: |
 dZEIzUs bli:d_tn= ladi:da} n= dUblI@_Xn]

 ...such salty fellows are we. The real dub pronunciation, though the
 variations are many, is something like [ma.@mat_+ISn=] or even
 [ma?@mat_+?ISn]. That hiatus occurs only intervocalically. In
 consonant clusters, [t_t] and [d_t] are possible, but things like
 "truck" border on [tSr`Uk]. (at least when there's no interfering form
 *"thruck". See below.)


> Yes, I am reminded of an old joke.  2 Irish men were walking in the woods,
> and saw a sign saying 'tree fellers wanted' So one says to the other, 'Pity
> thare's only the two of us'
>
Hmm.. No wonder that joke isn't told here... no one would understand it.
"Three fellows" is [t_tr`i: "fEl&z]
"Tree fellers"  is [tSr`i: fEl:@_~r`z] ;)

But [fElr&] is such a local word that it is entirely wrong to spell it
"fellow". The local dialect written form is "fella".


s,

talking about what he knows best, as usual, because his conlangs are giving
him headaches.

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