Re: Questions (mostly about phonemics)

On Jan 20, 2007, at 7:34 PM, Roger Mills wrote:

> Leon Lin wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> These have been confusing me to the point that I start to try to
>> figure
>> them
>> out in public. People sometimes stare at me when I repeat a
>> phoneme/word
>> over and over again.
>
> Welcome to the club!!
>>
>> 1. Is it possible to distinguish two final unreleased consanants?
>> i.e. Is
>> there a sound difference between "back there" and "bat there"
>
> In English I think, yes-- mainly because /t/ in that environment
> can > [?],
> which is distinct from unreleased [k].
Actually, in some dialects (in parts of England at least), /k/ can
also surface as [?].

Although you didn't actually say it, I noticed that in two posts in
this thread people have said that unreleased stops color the
preceding vowel. My question is: is that vowel coloring the only
indication of the stop? Or does it leave some other trace?

> If one heard an unknown lang. (e.g.
> like Indonesian/Malay, which typically has unreleased final stops),
> it might
> be more difficult. Actually, if you look at spectrograms, there is a
> definite difference-- the final stop has an effect on the preceding
> vowel.
>>
>> 2. I have heard some people call words with syllabic consanants like
>> "button" a 'nasal release'. Isn't this just a glottal stop
>> followed by an
>> /n/?
>
> The thing is, in Engl., the /-n/ is always syllabic. There are 3
> ways of
> looking at such words, all permissible: 1) the /t/ is unreleased
> and tongue
> tip doesn't move, but the velum lowers, the glottis opens, voicing
> begins
> and the release is thru the nose [kIt|n=] 2) the /t/ is [?], but
> transitions
> to open, simultaneously the velum lowers+tongue goes to alveolar
> position+voicing begins and the syll. /n=/ is heard, approx. [kI?
> n=] or 3)
> the t is indeed released (unaspirated), and there is a definite [@]
> heard
> before the final /n/. This is a very precise, almost affected
> pronunciation,
> and will remind many of 3rd grade teachers....;-)))
I find it hard, or maybe impossible, to pronounce a vowel immediately
following an unreleased stop, as in 3! I'm not sure I've heard that
pronunciation of <kitten> from others either, although I have heard
people who pronounce it something like [kId@n] or [kI4@n]. Sometimes
the schwa is a high vowel instead.

Which reminds me... is there any relation between unreleased stops
and flaps/taps? When I try pronouncing an unreleased stop followed by
a vowel, it ends up sounding (and feeling) like a flap/tap, at least
in the case of /t/.

Another question: do unreleased voiced stops exist?

>
> Again, if you look at these with a spectrogram or other measuring
> instrument, the difference will be clear.
>
> 3. Is stress also accompanied by a raise in pitch (in English)?
>
> I think so, in ordinary speech. I can imagine expressions of
> disgust/semi-curses where it might go down-- Oh Héll! Oh dámn, oh
> shít! etc.
> where for me the contour would be 2(or even 3)-->1
>
> Italian (I think) goes down on the stressed syllable. So does American
> parody of Swedish...(sorry 'bout that, guys). And so, apparently, does
> Jakarta dialect of Indonesian-- I know we learners found it very
> difficult
> to imitate.
>>
>> === If you speak Mandarin ===
> Can't comment.............
>
> Now to see what others have had to say (while I was writing this,
> several
> other replies arrived.)