(ADPT) Mutable R's

 --- Dirk Elzinga skrzypszy:

> >That is not merely a matter of phonetic environment, but also a matter of
> >dialect. [r] is standard, but only a minority (including myself) pronounces
> >it clearly.
>
> Is this age-related? I still have some elderly relatives who have this
> pronunciation; my mother has it as well (she's from Amsterdam).
Yes, I think it is related to both age and region. [r] is definitely not very
common among younger people.

> >[R] is used by many people as an alternative for [r]. [...]
>
> I didn't hear this very often -- mostly from Belgians. But I moved in rather
> restricted circles (I was a student at Tilburg University for a year), and I
> didn't get a full appreciation of dialect diversity in the Netherlands, nor
> did I pay a lot of attention at the time.
I made a mistake. I actually wanted to say: [R\] is used by many people as an
alternative for [r]! In other words: an uvular thrill. Apart from
Zuid-Hollandse dialecten like Rotterdams and (probably) Haags, this thing seems
to have taken over the role of [r] in the speech of many younger people.
About the situation in Noord-Brabant I can tell you little. I'm sure Christophe
could tell you more.

> >[r\] [...]
>
> I've only heard this pronunciation from Rotterdamers; is it found elsewhere
> in South Holland or Zeeland (or in the rest of the country)? I had relatives
> who lived on Tholen, but I don't think they had [r\] for /r/.
I don't know about Zuid-Holland or Zeeland. But I can tell you for sure that
this sound is common in Het Gooi and in Haarlem ["har\lEm].

> >[R] sounds very Southern to me.
Yes. Very common in Limburg.

> >Another often encountered way to pronounce /r/ is a glide. This is not
> >dependent on dialect, I think, but mostly on a person's style of speaking.
>
> What kind of glide? some would maintain that /r\/ is also a glide ...
To be honest, I don't know. In some cases I think something [j]-like can be
detected, although it sounds a lot like children's speech to me. And in some
cases the /r/ is not pronounced at all by some people, a phonemenon similar to
British English.

Have you ever heard of "Haagse Harry"? It's a comic in which all text is
written in a representation of Haags. Apart from the fact that it is quite
funny, it also gives some insight into the city dialect itself. If you don't
know it, I'm sure you can dig up something with Google's help.
BTW There is also a Windows program that converts Dutch texts to Haags, called
"Harrie voâh Windaus".

> Hey, look at that! Another Dutch pronunciation thread!
:)) Yes indeed! Were they also that common before I entered the list (now more
than a year ago)? If not, I guess I should start feeling guilty!

Jan

=====
"Originality is the art of concealing your source." - Franklin P. Jones

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