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Re: (ADPT) Mutable R's

From:Christophe Grandsire <christophe.grandsire@...>
Date:Thursday, March 27, 2003, 20:09
En réponse à Jan van Steenbergen <ijzeren_jan@...>:

> > Yes, I think it is related to both age and region. [r] is definitely not > very > common among younger people. >
Except in Brabant where it's the normal and exclusive pronunciation :) .
> > I made a mistake. I actually wanted to say: [R\] is used by many people > as an > alternative for [r]! In other words: an uvular thrill. Apart from > Zuid-Hollandse dialecten like Rotterdams and (probably) Haags, this > thing seems > to have taken over the role of [r] in the speech of many younger > people. > About the situation in Noord-Brabant I can tell you little. I'm sure > Christophe > could tell you more. >
In my ear, the main characteristics of the speech of Noord-Brabant is its softness. The rhotic is an alveolar trill in all positions, the |g| is soft /G/, etc... I always associate the [R] and [R\] pronunciations to the North.
> > I don't know about Zuid-Holland or Zeeland. But I can tell you for sure > that > this sound is common in Het Gooi and in Haarlem ["har\lEm]. >
Yep, it's mostly found in the Randstad (basically Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Den Haag and Utrecht, and the towns around). Sounds extremely posh to me.
> > >[R] sounds very Southern to me. > > Yes. Very common in Limburg. >
Really? I find that extremely strange. To me [R] sounds extremely Northern, and my first contact with Dutch was in the South. If [R] was common there, I would have remarked it (after all, it's the French 'r', so I can easily recognise it). No, to me, the Southern dialects sound nearly Spanish-like to me, with their use of the alveolar trill (and very rarely the alveolar tap) for the rhotic.
> > To be honest, I don't know. In some cases I think something [j]-like can > be > detected, although it sounds a lot like children's speech to me. And in > some > cases the /r/ is not pronounced at all by some people, a phonemenon > similar to > British English. >
Yep, I hear that around here ;)) .
> > :)) Yes indeed! Were they also that common before I entered the list > (now more > than a year ago)? If not, I guess I should start feeling guilty! >
Well, I do remember a few discussions on the Dutch |g| before, and on the multiplicity of the Dutch dialects :) . So you needn't feel guilty :)) . Christophe. It takes a straight mind to create a twisted conlang.