Re: Silindion Relative Clauses

--- Jörg Rhiemeier <joerg_rhiemeier@...> wrote:

> Hallo!
>
> On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 14:57:22 -0800,
> Elliott Lash <erelion12@...> wrote:
>
> > There is a distinct difference in Low Silindion
> > relative clauses and High Silindion relative
> clauses.
> >
> > Low Silindion Relative structures are made up of
> two
> > parts:
> >
> > 1) Relative Pronoun
> > 2) Relative Clause
> >
> > The relative pronoun is:
> >
> >   të   (animate)    = who   (singular/plural)
> >   ta   (inanimate)  = which
> >   tona  (inanimate) = which (plural)
>
> This is somewhat odd.  No number disctinction in the
> animate form,
> but in the inanimate?  I seem to remember a tendency
> towards having
> more number distinctions on the top end of the
> animacy scale than
> on the bottom end.
It's only synchronically I guess. The singular/plural
distinction fell together in the animate due to sound
change:

  të  < *tye  (singular)
  të  < *tyei (plural)

  ta   < *ta
  tona < *ta:na

 I suppose though it is vaguely weird, but it seems
like it's really too engrained to change that right
now.

> > Finally, with a non-nominative case:
> >
> >  Nissa phessina i lavanta tein yulavassë apa.
> >  "Let's eat the game that father caught"
> >
> >  nissa phess-i-na i  lavat-na  tei-n
> >  let   eat-SBJ-1p the game-ACC. which-ACC
> >
> >  yo-a-lavass-ë       apa
> >  REL-aug-catch-PST  father
>
> Nice!
 Also, I just remembered this now, there is a
tendency, perhaps colloquially, to treat animals as
"inanimate" and reserve the animate for persons. I had
a hesitation while writing the above sentence, since I
wanted to put "tan" instead of "tein". But I opted for
the more "standard" form, I guess.

> The Old Albic relative clause is opened by a
> particle that is
> inflected for the animacy/gender, number and case of
> the head noun.
> Note that the case is not according to the function
> within the
> relative clause, but according to the function
> within the outer
> clause.  If the head noun is a core argument
> (agentive or objective)
> in the relative clause, no pronoun is necessary as
> it is
> cross-referenced on the verb.  Otherwise, a
> resumptive pronoun
> is used.
I like this idea a lot this seems less like European
languages than Silindion, in this regard.

> Example:
>
> (1) O ndero o matara am mbas melara im hinim.
>     o           ndero     o           am    mbas
>     the:M(-AGT) man(-AGT) REL:M(-AGT) the:I bread
>     mel-a-sa        i-m        hin-i-m
>     love-PRES-3SG:A the:PL-OBJ child-PL-OBJ
There's a lot of Sindarin/Quenya in there isnt there?
  mat-, mbas, mel-, hin-. Also, you forgot to gloss
"matara" but I suppose it's "mat-a-sa"

How much of Old Albic's is derived from those too
languages?

>
> Here an example of a resumptive pronoun:
>
> (4) am mbar am matara o ndero am mbas tathas
>     `the house which the man eats the bread in'
>
> The relative clause _am matara o ndero am mbas
> tathas_ contains
> the inanimate resumptive pronoun in the locative
> case as its last
> element (_tathas_).
What's the non-locative of "tathas"?  tath-??

> ----------------------------------------------------
> > An even more poetic relative structure that High
> > Silindion (especially older High Silindion, almost
> > Middle High Silindion) can use is a relative
> suffix
> > attached to a conjugated verb. This suffix is
> <-ië>
> >
> > Here's the first line of a prayer to Alarie, the
> > moon-goddess:
> >
> > A Alárië anti yendán nénië
> > "Oh Alarie who gives us joy"
> > A   Alárië an-ti  yendá-n né-n-ië
> > VOC Alarie us-DAT joy-ACC give-3s-REL
>
> Now that is an interesting construction!
I'm unsure if you meant interesting as in unusual or
just interesting in general? Here the relative suffix
is ripped off of some reconstructions of Proto-Celtic,
which use -yo/-io instead of -ie. But the idea is the
same.


I'm not sure what the long trail of lines was all
about, glad you enjoyed though...

  ~Elliott

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