Re: CHAT: Tolkien (was Re: fantasy)

Jeffrey:
> And Rosta <a.rosta@...> comunu:
>
> > Are elves a separate entity. I don't have my Silmarillion with me,
> > but I thought hobbits are a variety of Men, and Men and elves are
> > of the same "species", while Dwarves were independently created,
> > and Orks are bred from elves.
>
> Elves and Men are most definitely two different species.  Men
> have the "Gift of Iluvatar", which happens to be a short life and
> death.  Elves stay in Middle Earth until they are weary of it and
> finally depart.  If an elf is killed in battle, I believe he goes
> to the Hall of Mandos to wait -- in other words he still lives.
> You can sail to Valinor and find a "slain" elf in the Hall of
> Mandos, without having died yourself.  Unfortunately, you're
> not allowed to leave the Hall of Mandos yourself...
I'm aware of this eschatological/soteriological distinction between
Elves and Men, but had thought it didn't amount to a difference in
species. I know two definitions of species: (1) the ability to
interbreed and produce fertile offspring; (2) (1) + the instinct
to do so. By (1) they're the same species. By (2) it's more
debatable, I suppose, but (2) is less applicable to intelligent
beings motivated by more than instinct.

I don't mean to be merely quibbling here: it is genuinely my
impression of JRRT's intentions that he intended the distinction
to be metaphysical rather than fundamentally biological, in contrast
to Dwarves, where their difference from other races would be
fundamentally biological.

> It's definitely time for you to re-read the Silmarillion, And! :-)  I just
> re-read it completely for the fourth time this spring -- it's a wonderful
> book, but I didn't like it the first two times I attempted to read it.  I
> now think its the best of all JRRT's works.
I find it hard to reread or rewatch novels or films whose excellence
surpasses a certain degree, such that you feel exhilarated but drained
afterwards. It's too intense, too overwhelming. I have to gradually build
up in advance the energy to undertake such revisitings.

--And.