Re: USAGE: Internetese deviancy - the definite article

Michael Potter wrote:

> David Barrow wrote:
>
>> I. K. Peylough wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:09:39 -0500, David Barrow
>>> <davidab@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Gary Shannon wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>>> I still haven't figured out how the British decide to
>>>>> DROP "the" in so many odd places like "going to
>>>>> hospital" instead of "going to THE hospital."  Does
>>>>> anybody know what the rule is for when to drop "the"
>>>>> in order to speak proper British?  For example, does
>>>>> one say "I'm going to the city", or "I'm going to
>>>>> city"?
>>>>>
>>>>> Somehow, "going to university" makes "university"
>>>>> sound like a verb to me.  "I'm going to university and
>>>>> then I'm going to sing, and if you don't watch out I'm
>>>>> going to hospital you right in the face."
>>>>>
>>>>> --gary
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> The basic idea is institutions used for their intended purpose
>>>> In hospital for treatment v in the hospital to visit a patient
>>>> In prison to serve a sentence v in the prison to speak to some
>>>> prisoners
>>>> At school, at college, at university to study v at the school, at
>>>> college, at university for a party
>>>> At church for the service v at the church to repair the stained-glass
>>>> windows
>>>>
>>>> We say to, in(to) the city but to, in(to) town.
>>>>
>>>> David Barrow
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> * examples 1 & 2 have "in" vs. "in the"
>>> * examples 3 & 4 have "at" vs. "at the" (except that "the" seems to
>>> have
>>> been omitted before "college" and "university")
>>>
>>>
>> Unitentionally. Should have been at the college, at the university
>>
>>> 3 & 4 (minus the exception) are like American English.
>>> 1 & 2 in American English:
>>> 1. In *the* hospital for treatment v _at_ the hospital to visit a
>>> patient
>>> 2. In *the* prison to serve a sentence v _at_ the prison to speak to
>>> some
>>> prisoners
>>>
>>> so Britich "in the" becomes American "at the" and British "in" becomes
>>> American "in the". Note that 3 & 4 preclude an American to Britich
>>> rule!
>>>
>>> IKP
>>>
>> So Americans have 'in jail' but 'in the prison' for convicts?
>>
>> For me the difference between 'at' and 'in' is one of precision. 'in'
>> means in the building you know the person is inside at this moment, 'at'
>> when you don't know for sure the person is inside right now. They could
>> be waiting outside or in the garden or in regular attendance but maybe
>> not right now
>>
>> the kid is in school studying means in class
>> his mother is in the school talking to the teachers means she's inside
>> the school
>> the kid is at school means he goes to school but is not necessarily
>> there right now
>> his mother is at the school to pick up her children.  She could be
>> inside or she could be outside waiting in her car
>>
>> in prison (obviously inside) for a convict but it can be in the prison
>> or at the prison for a visitor
>> in hospital for a patient. In the hospital or at the hospital for a
>> visitor
>>
>> If you are talking about a person who is visiting a patient or a
>> prisoner
>> If you are standing outside the hospital or prison you'd say
>> s/he's in the hospital/prison
>> If you are away from the hospital or prison you'd say
>> s/he's at the hospital/prison
>>
>> David Barrow
>>
>
> I just have to reply to this subthread, but I can only speak for myself
> and the people that live around here. I'm from Tennessee, and therefore
> the southern US. The Southern US dialect is, of course, a mix of
> American lexicon, British syntax, and phonology from nowhere on this
> earth. ;)
>
> For me it's like this:
>
> "in" means (for me) that you are in the place on a regular basis. "in
> school/college" means you are a student that goes to school. "in
> prison/jail" means you are serving time. "in hospital/university" means
> you are a Brit :P
>
> "at" would mean that you are in that place currently, as part of a
> regular "in" basis. "at school" means you are "in school", but also that
> you are actually inside the school. "at church" means "inside the church
> during services", etc. (For "at hospital/university" see above. I've
> never heard "at prison")
Nor have I

>
>
> "in the" is what I would use for someone inside the specific
> school/church/whatever building, while I was outside that building, but
> near it. "at the" would, conversely, mean that you were inside, but I
> was at home.
If you are at home, how do you know the person is inside and not at the
entrance
or in the garden?

David Barrow

>
>
> The whole thing seems pretty irregular, and I'm sure I left out some
> details. People here can usually figure out what you mean, but it might
> take them a while.
>
> --
> Michael
>

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