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Re: GROUPLANG : POLL2 (Re: cases, modifiers, pronouns)

From:Pablo Flores <fflores@...>
Date:Thursday, October 22, 1998, 16:18
Mathias M. Lassailly wrote:
> >1. The following cases have been most suggested : > >1.1. Cases used with verb-rooted predicates : > >- ergative = transitive nominative ERG=TNOM : erg-me to-be-red = I redden >(him); erg-me to-rise = I raise; >erg-me bite = I bite. > >- absolutive = undergoer = intransitive nominative ABS=UND=INOM : abs-me >to-rise = I rise; abs-me to-be-red = >I am/become red. > >Nota : this is not a genuine absolutive which should be passive as in Basque as in : >abs-me to-be-cut = I'm cut => erg-me abs-it to-be-cut = I cut it. > >- patientive = accusative PAT=ACC : pat-me to-bite = I'm bitten. > >- causative CAUS : caus-me erg-he red = I have him redden (something); caus-me >erg-he fall = I have him fell; >erg-me food = I apply food = I feed (someone). > >- dative DAT : dat-me to-give = I'm given (a gift). > >1.1. Cases used with noun-rooted predicates : > >- agentive AGE : age-me stream = I stream; age-me club = I beat; age-me gift = >I'm given (as a gift); age-me >image = I'm seen. > >- ergative ERG : erg-me red = I apply red on him; erg-me fall = I apply fall >on him = I make him fall; erg-me >hammer = I apply hammer = I hammer (with a tool). > >- patientive PAT : pat-me red = I'm applied red colour; pat-me club = I'm >clubbed; pat-me eye = I'm looked at. > >- absolutive ABS : abs-me eye = abs-image = I see; abs-seat = I sit; abs-me >fruit : I bear fruit; abs-me rise >= I rise; abs-me gift = I'm given (a gift). > >- attributive ATT : att-me home = I live in (a cave); att-me brother = I've a >brother; att-me ears = I've >ears; att-me smoke = I (release) smoke; etc. > >- causative CAUS : caus-me erg-he red = I have him redden; caus-me erg-he fall >= I have him fell something.
I agree on all of this, with some reserves... 1. What's the difference between "erg-me fall" and "caus-me fall"? (I guess the latter one should not imply you did it on purpose.) Plus, is it "erg-me pat-him fall" or "erg-me abs-him fall"? (I guess the second one... "abs-him fall" means "he falls") 2. I don't like "abs-me eye" for "I see". And "abs-me gift" I would prefer to translate as "I am a gift" (which is not the same as "I'm given")
> >1.3. Case used with arguments : > >- genitive GEN : dog gen-me / gen-me dog = my dog > >2. Suggested degrees of integration were : > >- thema + rhema (topic) THEM + RHEM : them-(abs)-dog red = the dog, she's red; >OR dog red = the dog, (she's) >red. > >- argument + predicate + ARG + PRED : erg-dog pat/acc-me bite = dog bites me. > >- modifier + noun / modifier + predicate = MOD + NOUN/PRED : mod-red dog = red >dog; erg-me mod-hard bite = I >bite hard. > >- phrase + determinant / noun + determinant = PHR/NOUN + DET : det-pat-me bite >dog = the dog who bites me. > >- clause + relative + sub-clause = CL + REL + SUBCL : dog erg-it pat-me bite = >the dog who bites me / the dog >biting me; dog abs-it red = red dog; erg-dog pat-me abs-which hard bite = dog bites me hard.
I agree on most of these. I prefer to have determination expressed by other means, maybe as a suffix (here, in the DOG).
> >3. Suggested pronouns were : > >3.1. Personal pronouns (spacial deixis - no genders discussed here) : > >- 1, 2, 3, 3bis >- 1sg, 1pl, 2sg, 2pl, 3sg, 3pl >- 1incl, 1excl, 2incl, 2excl, 3 >- polite-less-polite-even-less-polite >etc. >
I vote for 1incl, 1excl, 2incl, 2excl, 3, with an optional marker of politeness. (Maybe we could have another one for anti-politeness or despise!)
>3.2. Relative/resumptive pronouns (syntactic deixis) : > >latter/former/next one : dog erg-last_one pat-me bite = dog who bites me >latter/this/next fact : erg-dog abs-this_fact hard pat-me bite = dog bites me hard; arg-dog >pat-me bite att- >latter_fact hard = dog bites me hard.
I don't like this usage completely. Maybe for more complicated sentences.
> >Please make your choice and comments on items 1.1 through 3.2. > >Suggested next step : postpositions/adverbal subclause; word-order in subclause; >genders/classifiers; derived >nouns, state/action nouns ('the one bitten', 'the maker', 'the fact of eating'); >aspects, moods ('want to', >'can', 'must', etc.) tenses, negative; for verb-rooted predicates : passive, (antipassive ?).
I think we should have the moods suggested (want to, can, must), plus two conditional ("if") moods: "If I do" (it's probable that I do, so...) and "If I did" (it's not certain that I will do, it depends). Each mood should be a prefix of the verb; and each one should have a negative form. Plus, a suffix could negate the verb itself. This to avoid ambiguities such as "I must not escape" (I must not escape OR I don't have to escape). I know it's not ambiguous in English, but only because we use "have to". This way we could say "I cannot not see" ("I can't help but see"). --Pablo Flores