Re: Poll: What looks best?

In the last episode, (On Friday 06 July 2007 10:07:06), R A Brown wrote:
> T. A. McLeay wrote:
> > taliesin the storyteller wrote:
> > ...
> >
> >>maгavvel г kanra гāen oгamigh гu khaгa гetuaþ гeìes
> >
> > I hate to pick a loser, but I think this one here is miles ahead of the
> > competition. It looks r-ish but represents a velar letter: Perfect for
> > the job. The leader of the pack looks like it should represent a palatal
> > letter ... absolutely the last choice in my books.
>
> Yes, I agree with Tristan that the current leader, r-hac(z)ek/ r-caron
> or whatever else one wants to call it, suggests a _palatal_ sound.
> That's the way it's used, isn't it?
>
> As for the others:
>
> Herman Miller wrote:
>  > taliesin the storyteller wrote:
>  >> The quest to replace H continueth! Here's a test-sentence:
>
> [snip]
>
>  >> And here are the candidates:
>  >>
>  >> maHavvel H kanra Hāen oHamigh Hu khaHa Hetuaþ Heìes
>  >> mařavvel ř kanra řāen ořamigh řu khařa řetuaþ řeìes
>  >> maяavvel я kanra яāen oяamigh яu khaяa яetuaþ яeìes
>  >> maħavvel ħ kanra ħāen oħamigh ħu khaħa ħetuaþ ħeìes
>  >> maгavvel г kanra гāen oгamigh гu khaгa гetuaþ гeìes
>  >
>  > I have a tendency to read something like "Toys Я Us" as "Toys [ja]
>  > Us"...
>
> Yep - even stuck into a string of Roman letters, those of us familiar
> with Cyrillic will recognize Я as /ja/. If a letter is to be taken from
> Cyrillic, Greek or some other alphabet then it ought IMO to retain some
> associated value. Я used to denote a _trill_ (beginning at the back of
> the tongue and, presumably, progressing along it to the tip)*, does not
> do that.
>
> It may be objected that Я in this case is not the Cyrillic letter, but
> reversed R. it ain't. A reversed R must surely have reversed-r as its
> lower case form. Using Я as a lower case letter sure looks like a
> Cyrillic borrowing.
>
>  >The first one suggests something like [χ] or [ħ]. The fourth one
>  > is even more likely to end up as [ħ].
>
> Agreed - in any case taliesin wants to replace H. But replacing it by ħ
> does not suggest the correct sound.
>
>  >The last one almost looks too much like a regular "r" (compare "kanra"
>
> and "гāen").
>
> But the sound is a trill, so looking like regular "r" should IMO be a
> plus. I have compared "kanra"and "гāen" and I can spot the difference
> between the two letters   :)
>
> Of the choices offered, I have to agree with Tristan that the last one
> is IMO the best (or maybe I should say least objectionable   ;)
>
> But if one wants a symbol that is r-like but more easily distinguished
> from lowercase -r_ than г is, then one might choose U+027D ('LATIN SMALL
> LETTER R HOOK'), cf.
> maɽavvel ɽ kanra ɽāen oɽamigh ɽu khaɽa ɽetuaþ ɽeìes
>
> *But I have some problem with taliesin's description of the sound:
> "The letter in question marks a sound that starts off as a velar
> trill (or one of its many raspy replacements) and turns into an
> alveolar trill."
>
> According to the IPA chart, a velar trill is not a possible sound (the
> square is not left empty, it is clearly blacked out). So what are the
> 'many raspy replacements'?
>
> The uvular trill has a symbol and is attested in natlangs (one finds it,
> e.g. used by some North Walian speakers), and I have no difficulty in
> making such a trill. A pharyngeal trill is also possible. As the
> replacement is described as raspy are we dealing here with an uvular or
> pharyngeal trill onset, or what?
I hate to rain on the parade of everyone who likes the last choice, but I
suspect to many people it may be indistinguishable from r. To make the point,
I mean the r as in "arr, me hearteys!" ;-)

Jeff

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