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Re: SVO vs SOV and A lot of other questions

From:Ray Brown <ray.brown@...>
Date:Wednesday, October 15, 2003, 17:38
On Tuesday, October 14, 2003, at 09:04 , Christophe Grandsire wrote:

> En réponse à Ray Brown : > > >> All - AFAIK. Unfortunately, I don't have to hand info about minor Romance >> langs like Ladin, Friulan, Romauntsch etc.; but from what I remember, >> they >> follow the common Romance system of >> having oblique forms of the personal pronouns (object & indirect object) >> as clitics attached to the verb. The normal position with finite verbs, >> except imperatives, is as proclitics (i.e. before the verb). > > In this matter, Romance languages can give surprises though. For instance, > Spanish is quite straightforward with object pronouns in front of finite > forms, but cliticised behind infinite forms (infinitive, participle, > gerund) and the imperative. On the other hand, in French object pronouns > are *always* in front of the verb, even in the infinitive and other > infinite forms,
Yep, I know - that why I said "finite verbs, except imperatives" :) It's some time since I got involved with the diachronics of the Romancelangs, so I'd hesitate to speculate how Vulgar Latin of the late Empire was cliticizing personal pronouns with infinitives and gerunds.
> and in the imperative affirmative the pronouns do indeed go behind the > verb, but take the full forms moi, toi, etc... instead of me, te, etc...
Yep - as French puts a slight stress on the last element in a phrase we can't have the unstressed 'me' at the end, but if we have two suffixed personal pronouns the first is still a clitic: donne-le-moi!
> In other words, the extent to which pronouns go in front of verbs is > different in different Romance languages :) .
But with non-imperative finite verbs there's a remarkable degree of uniformity, I think
>> The innovation in French is to have have the subject forms as proclitics >> also; this developed, of course, as some 50% or so of personal endings >> fell silent. The other major Romancelangs have not done this but IIRC >> proclitic subject forms have developed in Friulan and related Romance >> dialects/langs. > > for an > excellent grammar of Friulan. Indeed, in Friulan (as well as in every > Rhaeto-Romance tongue IIRC)
Thanks - interesting site :)
> the original subject pronouns have become proclitic forms which are > mandatory even if the full subject pronouns are used (French is slowly > going this way IMHO).
I've noticed that too. Zut! L'ordinateur il ne marche pas! Ray =============================================== (home) (work) ===============================================