Re: Evidence for Nostratic? (was Re: Proto-Uralic?)

I accidentally sent this to Rob instead of the whole list
(that's what comes from answering from the digest). I've taken
the liberty to forward it.

Rob H <magwich78@...> wrote:

> > > Although I would say that English "dine" was originally used as a medio-
> > > passive, and that "dined upon (something)" was a later innovation.
> >
> > ObConlang: For Stálág (which is split-S, active, and quite rigid
> > regarding transitivity) I'm tending towards the idea that all
> > patientive-subject intransitive verbs are mediopassives, either
> > lexically or derivationally. That is, "fall" is the mediopassive
> > of "drop", "break" (vi) is the mediopassive of "break" (vt), etc.
> > Add some context and other clues to avoid confusion between "real"
> > patientive intransitives and agentless causatives, and that's it.
>
> That is similar (if not the same) as what I want to do with 'OurTongue.'
> In OurTongue, all 'true intransitive' verbs are patientive-subject
> mediopassives (I use the term 'mediopassive' to denote intransitive
> verbs that are translated as either middles or passives in English).
> However, I don't think that OurTongue will make a distinction between
> '"real" patientive intransitives and agentless causatives.'  As for
> 'active intransitives,' such as 'run,' I will probably make no distinction
> between them and transitives.  For example, 'I run' will likely use the
> same verb as 'I run to the store.'
In fact 'run' is intransitive in both sentences. You probably meant that
you could have a transitive verb 'run-to' with a direct object that
represents the destination. In Stálág I use the applicative voice with
an allative modifier to do that, but in this case that would be useful
only for coordination:

    I (agent) ran-to the store (patient) but it (patient) had-closed
    "I ran to the store but it had closed down / it was closed."

> However, 'I run around' will probably use a mediopassive verb derived from
> the active verb 'run.'  Does this make sense?
Why mediopassive? 'Run around' seems just as active as 'run', only
slightly modified. However, if you mean that you're somehow running
around unwillingly or thinking about something else (automatically?),
then it would be a nice twist to have a way to convey the idea, and
a patientive-subject verb would be in order.


--Pablo Flores
  http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/nyh/index.html
  "Your freedom justifies our war."
    (Niccolò Macchiavelli -- slightly paraphrased.)