Re: CHAT: Religions (was: Visible planets)

At 01:06 AM 11/16/03 -0500, you wrote:
>Isidora Zamora scripsit:
>
> > > They usually do it in mirror
> > >fashion to what their teacher does - i.e., they
> > >cross in Eastern fashion, since the teacher will
> > >cross herself left to right, the children see it
> > >as right to left.
> >
> > I've seen them get it in the wrong direction frequently.  It takes awhile
> > before they get it right.
>
>Why not simply explain to Latin-rite kids that they should push and
>Byzantine-rite kids that they should pull,
I may be confused here, but I think that is backwards, since Eastern
fashion is from right shoulder to left shoulder, which seems more of a
pushing motion than a pulling one.  Otherwise, it is a great idea, and one
I hadn't thought of before.  I may use that description, if I ever get the
chance.  (My own children have long had it right except for sloppiness,
which I need to insist that they correct, and I don't have any young
godchildren.)  But even such a good idea may not get you very far when you
are dealing with a two or three year old.  They start trying to cross
themselves very young.  Even before they're able to cross themselves, often
the parent or godparent will take the infant's hand and cause the child to
cross themself.  At least, I see Orthodox do this all the time.  We also
give Holy Communion to infants, as long as they've been baptized.  Children
are fully participating in the liturgical life of the Church from before
they can even remember.  Anyone know if Eastern Rite Catholics bring
infants to Communion?  Padraic, have you seen it?  (Or have you seen any
other children obviously too young for First Communion in the Latin Rite
receiving Communion in the Eastern Rite parishes you've visited?  That
would also indicate the same thing.)

Does the West have anything like the naming of the child and the Churching
of mother and child?  On the eighth day after the birth of the child (and
we count inclusively, so we would think of it as the seventh, whereas
Orthodox call it the eighth - it's the same day of the week as the child
was born on), the priest comes and there is a little service of naming the
child.  (I know one priest who told a story about one couple who kept going
back and forth on what they were going to name the child.  When he came to
their house on the eighth day to name the child, he told them that they had
better make up their minds _now_, because, once he named the child, that
was its name.)

On the fortieth day after the birth of the child, the mother and child
return to Church.  The mother, at least, hasn't been to Church since the
birth, and the child hasn't been brought unless it was to be
baptized.  (The parents aren't necessary at all for the baptism of the
child, only the godparents.  I felt rather left out, to tell the
truth.)  There are prayers of churching said in the narthex, then the
mother and baby enter the nave of the Church.  I can't remember what the
priest does with the child if it is a girl, but a boy is taken into the
sanctuary and the priest walks three times around the altar table with him,
then comes out and returns him to his mother, with another prayer or
two.  (I might have a few of the details slightly off, but you get the
general idea.  And, whenever we proceed around something, it is always done
in a counter-clockwise direction, for whatever reason.)

>  at least the right-handed ones?
No matter which is your dominant hand, you always cross yourself with your
right.  I'm left handed, in fact.  The only time I have ever seen anyone
cross himself with his left hand was when a man in our parish, who was
recovering from surgery to repair a torn rotator cuff, did it.  His right
arm in a sling, and he was still in considerable pain.  Later on, when
there was less pain, he reverted to his right hand in spite of the sling.

>Even I can remember that despite my leftrightsia.
You too?  I can't keep track of how many people on this list have admitted
to left-right confusion (myself among them.)

>(I note that Latins are allowed to use the Orthodox style.)
Yes.  That is probably because of the existence of Eastern Rite
Catholics.  Orthodox don't ever cross themselves left to right as the
Latins do, as far as I know.  There are a few Western Rite Orthodox
parishes in the U.S., but they do not have the same sort of origin as the
Eastern Rite Catholics, (and their Liturgy is based on the Book of Common
prayer adapted to conform to Orthodox usage), and I doubt that they cross
themselves in the Western direction, but I might be wrong.  If my husband
were here, he might be able to tell me how is was that East and West came
to cross themselves differently.  I believe that it dates from before the
Schism.

Isidora

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