Lateral fricatives (was: Names of Latin alphabet letters)

At 10:45 pm +0000 26/1/01, And Rosta wrote:
>Ray:
>> Even more strange is the pronunciation used by some in England when
>> attempting to pronounce the Welsh lateral fricative {ll}; they 'hear'
>> (incorrectly) it as /xl/ and say [kl] !
>
>Speaking as an eminent Livagianist, I don't find it at all strange.
>Livagian /xl/ (<khl>) and /Gl/ (<ghl>) are normally pronounced as
>voiceless and voiced lateral fricatives.
But that's straightforward assimilation:
voiceless (velar) fricative + lateral --> voiceless lateral fricative;
voiced (velar) fricative + lateral --> voiced lateral fricative.

This could happen whether the fricative were dental, alveolar, labial or
whatever.  Like you, I do not find this at all strange; indeed, I'm fairly
certain such developments are attested in natlangs.

Likewise, the not uncommon dissimilation that some adopt when trying to
pronounce Welsh [K] {ll} does not strike me as strange; e.g. in Shakespeare
we meet [K] --> [fl] in Flewellyn, and one English version of Welsh _llwyd_
is the surname Floyd.  I've heard people pronounce the first sound in Llan-
as [Tl], [xl] and [hl]; these are not remarkable; friction is retained.
The single voiceless lateral fricative has just be dissimilated into a
voiceless fricative + lateral combo; and such combos are common enough in
English (tho [xl] and [hl] themselves are not).


What I find strange is:
voicless lateral _fricative_ --> voiceless plosive + fricative [kl] i.e.
all friction is lost.

BTW I also find the SAMPA use of [K] to ASCIIfy the IPA belted-l symbol a
strange way to denote the voiceless lateral fricative a strange choice.
Does anyone know why was [K] chosen.

All that [K] suggests is voicelessness; it suggests neither friction nor
lateralness. The use of [K\] to denote the _voiced_ lateral fricative is
IMO even less satisfactory.  The real IPA symbol, l-ezh ligature, at least
is a fair indication of the sound since it does, indeed, sound like [Z] and
[l] pronounced simultaneously.

Of all the suggestions for the ASCCIIfication of these sounds I like best
Philip Jonsson's suggestions of of [l^S] and [l^Z] respectively.

Ray.




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