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Re: Universal Translation Language

From:From Http://Members.Aol.Com/Lassailly/Tunuframe.Html <lassailly@...>
Date:Monday, May 31, 1999, 18:44
Dans un courrier dat=E9 du 30/05/99 22:03:17  , Charles a =E9crit :

> > i'll try to stick to your word > > order although i think it's one of the worst you can design for an=20
auxlang=20
> : > =20 > In my experiments it seems impossible to have part-of-speech terminal > vowels and SVO order without eventually gravitating to adjective-noun. >=20
it's because you get short of vowels so you have to root-root bon-fishoobedo= o=20 in the end. anyway i think PoS tags should be head like in svo pidgins.=20 switching adj-noun means that you link inversion and attribution (like in=20 Chinese and English). in the same time you make a hierarchy ranking=20 attribution as secondary, derived word order and i feel it's not accurate.=20 maybe you can systematize children's language : house its door hurt john his head. dog ADJ it red TOP it nice =3D the red dog is nice friend my his sister she nice =3D my sister's friend is nice sister my friend she nice =3D (ditto) where integrative ADJ makes "it red" attributive like "his sister" is, and=20 resumptive TOP closes substuff. it seems strange, but that how attributive really works in children's heads = :=20 actor comes first, then attribute. this has nothing to do with verb-noun=20 difference. either verb is noun's attribute or noun is verb's attribute=20 because it's unaspectivized (that's my favourite rabitting-on subject) : "gone the car" =3D "the car gone" =3D the car is gone (as my little cousin s= ays :=20 "partie, la voiture !"). that's why i think your "reversive" language is a good basis for childish=20 auxlang.
> > i always avoid to reverse SVO order in integration, be it with adj-noun=20
or
> > within compound or derived words. > =20 > By using an inverse-transitive voice or doing French-like compounding, > root+preposition+root as in salle-a-manger, it could work well maybe. >
that's basically what i did with "kases" (remember ? ;-) but you may try with real prepositions made from real verbs.
> > let's say : > > i : verb > > o : substantive > > a : adj =3D attributive to a substantive > > e : adv =3D attributive to a verb > > -r- : nomen agentis > > -k- : noun of action > > -s- : genitive > > -t- : and (resumptive) > > > > bone fishi =3D to fish well > > bona fishi-r-o =3D the good fisher > =20 > Hey, I may have to steal this -r- and -k-, at least; > what would be the most productive set of these?
mapping all possible roles like ATProgrammers try to do now : maybe the firs= t=20 100,000. mapping like rick morneau, you know that better than myself. mappin= g=20 like indonesian : around 10. mapping like i would ("kases") : around 50 (all=20 most frequent roles in their main aspects used in derived words). if you are=20 willing to use long words and avoid ditransitives by means of serial verbs :=20 you need 4.
> And adding -u as a 5th part-of-speech for conjunctions. >
you don't need them if you have as many disruptive-resumptive pronouns as=20 PoSs.
> > bone-a fishiro =3D the fisher fishing well > =20 > Misagglutinatedly; how about "bone-fishiro" or > "bone-peciro" (if you tolerate c =3D /S/) ? > Or better maybe, "bonpecio" (I like ambiguity) ?
funny that Marcos and you both like root+root+suffix pattern. remember that english adj is one degree in integration between words,=20 different from compound (if you want to make that distinction in your=20 auxlang), different from other degrees of integration in other natlangs like=20 jap for instance (in jap adjectives may be aspectivized as state verbs).
> It feels weird modifying a noun with an adverb: "bone pecio". > But "bone pecia =3D bonpecia =3D well fishing" seems safe. > Maybe double-vowel POS's don't work as well as -ro does. > =20 > > ;-) > > It's just hell. > =20 > Let's not be judgemental, even in this year of 9's. > =20
i mean : who would speak that ? Mathias