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Re: Fourth Persons

From:Eldin Raigmore <eldin_raigmore@...>
Date:Friday, September 5, 2008, 0:10
On Thu, 4 Sep 2008 12:48:26 -0700, Aidan Grey <taalenmaple@...>
>wrote: >And Ojibwe is a non_HAS non-Inverse lang too. >They use "empathetic" for the pronoun because in addition to LDR and >logophoric roles, it implies empathy and approval. The sample sentence has a >woman using the empathetic when referring to some kids wanting to learn >the language, and then switching to a non-LDR/logophor/empathetic pronoun >when they start acting like jerks (as kids are wont to do).
I see.
>As to Obviative and LDR - they don't necessarily need to be the same >pronoun, or to be different morphemes. They're not as necessarily distinct in >my mind. One could use an obviative pronoun as an LDR (and it IS, often, if >there's no overt LDR) just as easily as not. LDR is a syntactic thing to me, >and an obviative as a semantic use could easily be used syntactically as well.
>I guess my point is that the 4 points you've discussed don't NEED to be >distinct, in the way that Perfective and Progressive are distinct, for example. >One pronoun could be used for all 4 roles. Especially since there are some of >these roles that are distinctly styntactic and other are distinctly semantic.
For my own part it is especially easy for me to see the similarity between LDRs and "logophoric first-person"; both refer to the subject of the matrix clause. But for obviatives and LDRs; it seems to me the subject of the main clause might be considered _more_ topical/focal/salient, rather than _less_ topical/focal/salient than any 3rd-person in the embedded clause; so I could see a possible conflict between obviatives and LDRs. As for obviatives and indefinites, it might make sense to use the indefinite pronoun for the less-salient/focal/topical 3rd-person when there are two 3rd- person participants of equal animacy. As for logophorics and obviatives, it might make sense to use the ordinary 3rd- person pronoun for the "logophoric first-person" (the speaker of the reported speech-act), and use the obviative for someone who was 3rd-person then and is still 3rd-person now. Whether the "logophoric second-person" (the original addressee) should be proximative or obviative might depend on whether the other participant is the "logophoric first-person" or a third-person who was also a "logophoric third-person". I don't see using the indefinite pronoun as an LDR at all. So, for each two uses (except indefinites and LDRs), I can maybe see maybe using one pronoun for both functions. But it's hard to see using one pronoun for three or more. ------- Thanks!