CHAT: R: Italian Particles
|Date:||Monday, April 17, 2000, 12:30|
>Object: Italian Particles
Methinks this subject isn't really correct: in Italian (=Tuscanian) we don't
have these particles; they're caratteristic of some Northern Italian
> >> Nik wrote:
> >> > o ami
> >> > tu amis
> >> > al ame
> >> > o amìn
> >> > o amais
> >> > a amin
> >> "O" can mean "I", "we", and "y'all"? Does the grave on -in indicate
> >> stress?
> > 'O' doesn't mean 'I', 'we' and 'y'all' (BTW, is Dutch 'julle' acontraction
> > of *jou alle(n)?). It's a particel you put before the verb. These arevery
> > common also in Northern Italian dialects: in my dialect, to conjugate a
> > verb, you have to follow this scheme:
> > (Personal Pronoun) + (Particel) + verb-time-personal ending,
> > so you can have things like:
> > (mi) (a) canti
> > 1s *** sing+1s
> > (ti) ta cantat
> > 2s 2s sing+2s
> > (lüü) al canta
> > 3s 3s sing+3s
> > (nümm) (a) cantum
> > 1p *** sing+1p
> > (vialtar) (a) cantuf
> > 2p *** sing+2p
> > (luur) (i) cantan
> > 3s 3s sing+3p
> > So, in a statement as 'ti ta vörat' (you want), you have three elementsto
> > determinate the subject:
> > the pronoun 'ti'
> > the particel 'ta'
> > the desinence '-at'
> > Isn't it cool? English uses only pronouns!
> So are there times when you would drop either the particle or the pronoun
> (I'm assuming you would never drop the person agreement suffix on theverb)?
You can drop all those particles I put in brackets.
> Do you have any idea about how these particles arose historically?
The grammar of my dialect gives this explanation:
Weak subjective proclitic forms:
they are used in the verbal conjugation, they come before the verb and they
are formally a reduplication of the personal pronoun.
1st sing : ego>e'>a _ not so much used anynore
2nd sing : te>ta _ always used
3rd sing : ille>il>el>al
illa>la _ always used
1st and 2nd plur : a < 1st sing _ in the 2nd plur is not so much used
3rd plur : illi>li>i _ it is not anymore used
Notice that the verbal conjugation was originally based on the verbal root +
canta+ego>canteo>cantio>canti archaic cantja (a as the weak subjective
canta+0>canta archaic canta+ille>cantal