Re: Language naming terminology (was Re: Finno-Ugric languages)

Raymond A. Brown wrote:

> At 4:31 pm -0500 20/9/98, Tom Wier wrote:
> [.....]
> >
> >Note that the names used for the same people were used by the people closest
> >to them; so, for example, the English used "German-" since the Germani
> >were the
> >closest to them,
>
> So how come we have in Welsh: Yr Almaen (Germany), Almaenaidd (German
> [adj]), Almaeneg (German language), Almaenwr (German man), Almaenes (German
> woman) ?  Are you saying that the Germani were closest to the English on
> the east of our island while the Alemani were closest to the Britons/Welsh
> on the west? I know of no evidence of this.
Oh, please, I was not speaking in a absolute manner. Sometimes the detailsstifle
the general picture trying to be portrayed. *Of course*, nothing is
ever
as simple as you make it out to be.  No one ever said that.  Please, in the future,
try to be less abrasive. :)

> >and the Spanish used "Aleman-" since the Alemani were closest
> >to _them_,
>
> I should've thought the Vandals & Visigoths were even closer!  The Vandals
> stayed long enough to give their name to (W)Andalusia before moving onto
> north Africa, and the Visigoths ruled quite a large chunk of Spain for a
> few centuries.
Yes, of course they were. But then they didn't remain in Germany, did they?
:)(hence: why call someone not in Germany a German, however closely
related
they may be? I for example am called "American", not "Scottish")

> >and so forth (I'm not sure where Ital. "tedesco" comes from,
>
> Same source as Deutsch, Dutch and the Scandinavian 'Tysk' (<-- *tytsk).
> The word originally begain with /T/ which in Scandinavia (& Italy) became
> the plosive /t/; in the low & high German areas initial /T/ was regularly
> voiced to /D/ before passing to the plosive /d/, cf.
Thanks for the info. :)

> But infact the Langobardi or Lombards were the Germanic tribe closest to
> Italy for quite a time: they ruled much of the northern part or Lombardy
> (as it's still called) for quite a while.
I wasn't talking about the nearest tribe -- I was talking about the nearest tribein Germany.

> Sorry - but the simple proximity argument simply won't wash (or, I believe
> the expression on your side of the pond is that it sucks).  It's a good
> deal more complicated than that & many names get passed on from one
> community to the next.  I don't rule out the proximity argument entirely,
> but it is only one of many other reasons.
I don't think it will do any good just to repeat what I have already written.It
just so happens that that is *often* the case, but not always. We're
talking about trends, not rules.  I was attempting to explain a trend to someone
who asked about it, and normally people who ask for information don't
like to be deluged with minutiae which might actually hinder understanding
of a concept.  I mean no meanness or coarseness, but please do not
be so serious about such a silly, trivial question.

> Something of the same surely happened with both the Alemani & Germani names
> at least.
Of course. No one is denying the truth of your statement.

One of the first things you learn to do when talking about history is to understand
that it's always more complex than one simple theory will explain -- like trying
to explain the collapse of the Western Roman Empire. People have been trying
to do that for centuries, but it seems pretty clear now, at least to anyone read
up on the subject, that no one answer bears with it sufficient evidence to be
convincing to all.

As I see it, my only error above was in not specifying when I was being general
and when I was being specific.  In the future, don't take my statements always to
be meant as absolute statements.

Can we please be friends? :)

=======================================================
Tom Wier <artabanos@...>
ICQ#: 4315704   AIM: Deuterotom
Website: <http://www.angelfire.com/tx/eclectorium/>
"Cogito ergo sum, sed credo ergo ero."

"Yet hadde he but litel gold in cofre;
But al that he myghte of his freendes hente,
On bookes and on lernynge he it spente"
    _Canterbury Tales_, Chaucer (Gen. Prol. 298-300)
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