Re: Status of Italian rising

On Tue, 10 Dec 2002 09:28:51 -0700, Dirk Elzinga <Dirk_Elzinga@...>
wrote:

The list is still locked -- you may get this twice.

>At 10:25 PM -0500 12/9/02, Jeff Jones wrote:
>>On Mon, 9 Dec 2002 12:30:37 -0700, Dirk Elzinga <Dirk_Elzinga@...>
>>wrote:
>>
>>> The labels "vocoid" and "contoid" are assigned to segments based on
>>> their function in syllable structure,
>>
>>BLOODY HELL!!!!!!!!!!!! I am really incensed!
>>All my references say that "vocoid" is a purely *phonetic* term, with
>>"vowel" used as the language-dependant term, e.g. "... utilize the term
>>_vocoid_ to represent the sounds in their phonetic character without
>>regard to their distribution in sequences or their usage as consonants or
>>vowels."
>>How can we discuss anything if the GHODDAMM LINGUISTAS keep redefining all
>>the terms randomly?? Who do they think they are, fucking IBM????
>
> There's no need to be crude.
Maybe not for you! But I guess saying "IBM" was going a bit too far.

> As it happens I was wrong, and your original understanding is the
> intended one. Pike gives this definition for vocoid: "A sound during
> which the air escapes from the mouth over the center of the tongue
> without friction in the mouth, i.e., a central resonant oral (friction
> elsewhere than in the mouth does not prevent a sound from being a vocoid;
> syllabic function or phonemic interpretation of a segment doesn not
> affect its interpretation as a vocoid or nonvocoid)." Ladefoged gives a
> similar definition: "A sound with no obstruction in the center of the
> mouth. Vowels and semivowels are vocoids." That's what I get for relying
> on my memory.
>
>>> but I find them to be misleading;
>>
>>to say the least!
>
> Well, with the original definitions back in place, there shouldn't be any
> more confusion.
>
>>> you can have "vocoids" which are not very vowel-like, for instance.
>>> I prefer the terms "peak" and "margin"; the peak of a syllable is the
>>> point of highest sonority, and the margins surround the peak and are of
>>> lower sonority. Thus [l] is the peak of the second syllable of 'little'.
>>
>>Now that makes sense to me. Is it just because you're American?
>
> Is what because I'm American? That the terms "peak" and "margin" make
> sense to you, or that the second /l/ in 'little' is syllabic?
Never mind.

>Dirk
>--
>Dirk Elzinga                                   Dirk_Elzinga@byu.edu