Re: THEORY: Ergativity and polypersonalism

> > I'm not even sure that French can be called "accusative" because there
>are > no markings or whatever and only the order makes the difference
>
>Difference in order is sufficient; accusative doesn't mean there's an
>accusative case, but rather the subject of a transitive verb is expressed
>in the same manner as the subject of an intransitive verb, such as in
>English. (ish, other people can probably explain it better)
but I can give you an example that the three can be the same

Ton chien et moi (your dog and I/me)

"Ton chien et moi allons au parc": your dog and I are going to the park
"Mon chien et moi grandisson": your dog and I grow
"Tu aimes ton chien et moi": you love your dog and me

but yes I know french is accusative (maybe I said that by opposition spirit
:-P)

but it's not as clear as in english


> > And, contrarily to english, there is not a really solid distinction >
>nominative-accusative in pronouns, because the pronoun will vary in > form
>and > position if it is the direct or the indirect object or if the object
>is an > enumeration with pronouns  Actually, if anyone told you that
>English has a solid nominative--accusative distinction in pronouns, they
>were lying. Examples to the contrary include 'It's me', 'John and me went
>to the milkbar', 'between you and I'. I think also that normally when
>there's a strong nom./acc. distinction, the pronoun-in-isolation form is
>the nominative, whereas in English you'd use the so-called object-form
>(-'Who would?' -'Me!').
but your examples are wrong:

you can't say "John and me went to the milkbar" and "between you a I", it is
"John and I" and "between you and me"

that way the distinction is there



>I think you'll probably find that analyses of spoken French and spoken
>(informal?) English are both behind the times.
>
behind the times? what does it mean?


>Lines like 'Yes, you were mistaken (like even the French are) by the nature
>of the French orthography.' remind me of ones very typical of French.
>
> > I'm also a native french speaker so I know what I'm talking about, >
>even if > i'm not a linguist  I think the correct thing to say is actually
>'I'm also a native [blah] speaker, so I *don't* know what I'm talking
>about'. Unless the French care more about the grammar of their native
>language than Australians!

it's sure that we care: it is hard to understand but it is necessary to gain
any diploms so it's sure that if someone wants to get far in school you have
to know it




I'll think about this and try to find more examples, I don't think that
pronouns can be considered as conjugation in spoken french and try all
pronouns combinaisons in subject and object

I'd like to know these Christophe's arguments maybe he would convince me...

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