Re: Cein

 On Thu, 31 May 2001, daniel andreasson <daniel.andreasson@...> wrote :

 > What would /-ea/ become? That's a common adjective
 > ending in Quenya.

 /-ea/ >> /-j@/ >> nil, but with i-affection of the preceding vowel.

 > Perhaps I should write it as <mm> after all.

 It could simplify to /m/ when word final, perhaps only when unstressed,
 where does the stress fall in Cein? Otherwise too many /mm/'s might
 make the language look too "heavy". The same would apply to /nn/ and
 perhaps /ll/ /rr/. The sound would double up again when an ending was
 added.

 >> /ir/ might
 >> just possibly cause germination leading to a spirant mutation

 > Very good idea too.

 >> and maybe doubling of /l r m n/.

 > What do you mean by "doubling of /l r m n/? That it should
 > be geminated in the beginning of a word following _ir_?
 > _melf_ 'love' >> _i mmelf_ 'the loves'  (to take an odd ex.)

 Yes, phonetically it's really all one word, stress group that is,
 "immelf", so it's really up to you how you split the double consonant
 i-mmelf; im-melf; imm-elf, whatever seems most logical to you.

 >> The original /r/ of ir would be lost except perhaps before vowels.
 > Good idea. Initial vowels are very common in Cein.
 Again, you could write ir- or else add the r to the start of the following
 word.

 >> I would have expected -nd- >> -nn- in Cein as in Sind. here

 > Yes. See my previous posting on this. Judging from a previous
 > posting on Welsh vs Brithenig, I'm thinking of having <nt>
 > become <nh>, instead of as now <nd>. Ex. _lanta_ >> _llanh_
 > instead of _llanh_. Which would be more correct?

 In Welsh you never get /nh/ at the end of a word. Either you could keep
 /-nt/, or take it to /-nn/ or /-n/ (see above).

 >>> ffilit    filig      filit    small bird

 >> I can't see why the final syllable wasn't lost in Sindarin.
 >> PE filiky ??? It should certainly go in Cein >> ffil

 > OK then. _Ffil_ it is.

 Hmm, looks a bit small. Maybe you could extend it. You could add an affix
 for the plural, and maybe another affix to mean "a single one of" to the
 singular. Using Welsh affixes to demonstrate (I don't know the elvish
 forms) ffilyn - small bird; ffilod - small birds.
 There again, ffilod could mean "(a flock of) small birds" especially if
 the word is mainly used for birds that go about in flocks, and then you
 add a suffix to get the singular ffilodyn - "a single bird of a type
 that usually goes about in flocks" -- just a thought :-)

 -------------

 Did I read that you were thinking about using the Irish version of
 lenition /t/ >> /T/; /d/ >> /D/ etc in some environments, was that
 Cein or am I getting my threads crossed?

 I just thought that you might avoid some of the problems with palatal
 /nh/ and suchlike by using the Irish version of the nasal mutation,
 sometimes called "eclipses". This is how it goes :
 /mb/ >> /mm/
 /mp/ >> /bb/ >> /b/

 /nd/ >> /nn/
 /nt/ >> /dd/ >> /d/

 /Ng/ >> /NN/
 /Nk/ >> /gg/ >> /g/

 All of these can be normal or palatal. In fact everything just about can
 be palatal or neutral (or u-coloured !) in Old Irish, but without any
 affricates. That is you'd have had things like palatal /T/ and /D/.
 Sadly these haven't survived into the modern langs, so we can only guess
 at their exact pronunciation.

 I think the thing is to get the feel of the sort of sound system you want
 for Cein. Then when the rules turn up something that fits well, keep it,
 but if they turn up something that fits badly, nudge it over to the
 nearest stable slot. That's what happens in natlangs IMHO.

 Keith

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