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Re: Cein

From:daniel andreasson <daniel.andreasson@...>
Date:Thursday, May 31, 2001, 12:41
Aidan Grey wrote:

> Well, I hate to burst your bubble, but there are a > lot of things that Tolkien hadn't finished (or that we > don't have access to - How do you say "tiger" in Cein, > for example?), so you will be creating some vocab. You > just have a leg up on the start of it!
Hehe. There are no tigers in Cuif/Ammar. However, there are lions, which are called _rha_ pl. _ra_. (_Raa_ in Q.) I see your point tho. :)
> I'd suggest just using the nasal mutation with a > couple of prepositions and maybe a single possessive > pronoun. Otherwise you end up speaking out your nose. > Se 'in' before a plural noun, for example (<Q -ssen). > se nghen 'in elves'
Yes. The preposition 'by' _nen_ is all I got so far. Q. _-ssen_ is the plural form, but I suppose I could use that one. That'll give me another nasal mutation preposition. Good idea. So 'in' is now _sen_.
> > cen [tSEn] 'elf' > > i nghen [I N_0En] 'the elf' (with _in_) > > i gen [I gEn] 'the elf' (with _i_) > > chen [xEn] 'elves' > > ir chen [Ir xEn] 'the elves' > > > > Two questions: (1) If I go with _in_, how would > > {ngh} be pronounced before [e] and [i]? {c} is [tS], so > > the nasal would be the equivalent. The closest I come > > is some sort of palatal nasal.
> That was my immediate thought /i njEn/. But, > analogy's evil hand may be revealed here too, and > everything pronounced the same, regardless of > palatization...
Possibly, but I like the [nj] pronunciation. No analogy there.
> Actually, this was a question for me. > Wouldn't you get the following pronunciations on your > examples above? : > > cen /tSEn/ > i nghen /i njEn/
Yes. The [N_0] was just if analogy had come into play.
> i gen /i dZEn/
Of course. It seems my mind can't handle all these rules about pronunciation, plus mutations at the same time. :(
> chen /SEn/ or /Cen/ with /C/ being Ich-laut, like > Quenya hyarma
Analogy! :) I had [C] at first, but then decided to have [x] for all contexts. I might change that back.
> ir chen /ir SEn/ or /CEn/
See above. Wouldn't the [r] disappear except before vowels, making it /i xen/ or /i Cen/?
> > (2) How do I explain the spirant mutation of indef. > > plural? > > And do I need to explain why c -> ch becomes [x] > > even though it is an [E] afterwards and the original > > {c} is [tS]?
> Analogy. (it is the solution to every problem!) or > that the ch- after the article became standardized, > like the nasal mutation above, where the trigger > environment has been lost. Then when the article > wasn't needed, it was assumed that the spirant needed > to be there because it showed the plural.
Yes, that's what I though too. Thank god for analogy. :)
> Good luck with the new job! I look forward to seeing > more Cein!
Thanks! And you will see more of Cein, don't you worry. :) ||| daniel -- <> Mad llamgalf! <> <> <> Ond llam! <> <>