Re: Universal grammar

Yes, Arnold Shoenberg it was.  Thanks, James.

----- Original Message -----
From: "James Worlton" <jamesworlton@...>

> --- Sally Caves <scaves@...> wrote:
> > That may be, but I liked what I heard.  "Sitting
> > Echoes" made me feel that I
> > was in substantial danger of getting cut by flying
> > glass.  A very sensual
> > piece, that set me on edge.  "Through the Edge" was
> > simply beautiful.  I
> > look forward to hearing your more up to date work.
>
> :))) Composers like it when they get positive
> comments.
So do writers, artists, and conlangers.  I've bookmarked your page, I so
liked "Through the Edge."  It was performed and recorded, wasn't it?  Do you
have a CD of your music?

> > In the meantime, what
> > are your conlanging preferences?
>
> OK...ahem...I admit to a very OT presence lately :P
> (Note the change of subject, however :).) I have been
> meaning to get around to the following for a few days.
>
> I am a person who loves (make that LOVES) structure.
You're a composer.

> So it would be natural to believe that grammar and
> syntax creation would be no problem for me, right?
> Wrong.
This is not surprising to me.  Because you are a person who greatly loves
structure, your structure has to suit you, first of all, before you can
commit to it.  But you're in a bind.  Because you can't commit to its
structure, as you write below, you can't commit to working further on
Oreelyna.

I have read the "How to create a conlang"
> websites and even the lengthy "monograph" of Rick
> Morneau (yes, the WHOLE thing -- it was interesting
> from a theoretical and practical viewpoint, but not
> from an artistic/naturalistic one). I prefer conlangs
> that are naturalistic, as mine wants to be.
Maybe you should commit to getting a rudimentary lexicon, first of all--what
And Rosta calls phonaesthesia--before you work on the structure.  It's like
you have to have notes and sounds first of all before you know you want to
do with them.

> My problem is that I have a limited knowledge of other
> grammars and syntactical methods in natlangs and
> conlangs. This of course can be alleviated through
> study. But I lack the time (maybe I'm just lazy ;)) ).
No...just busy, and maybe a little over-awed.  I would skip the Mornau and
look at the Thomas Payne, as Dirk and Amanda suggest.  And just plunge in.
Draw on that sense for structure and rhythm that makes your music so
beautiful.  You remember when you first started composing, don't you?  If
you worried as much about getting your structure right, back then, you would
never have touched finger to key.  Right?  :)

> Is there a good reference (or set of them) for
> grammatical comparisons between languages? How about a
> set of Universal grammatical points. (I have googled
> for it, but only find philosophical appproaches. I
> want practical! :)).) My goal in looking at such
> things would be to understand better how communication
> works with different sets of rules, which I could then
> choose from for my own project.
>
> I bring this up because Oreelynna is experiencing a
> crisis of attention lately due to my realization that
> its grammar seems to have inconsistencies. What they
> are, I couldn't say. It is just a feeling. Any
> references that you all know of would help here.
You would need to showcase Oreelynna for us more, so that we could see what
it is you think is inconsistent in its grammar.  I would need to see what
you mean by "consistency."  I imagine that it is something other than
"irregularity."  Natural languages have grammatical irregularities galore.
Don't they also have grammatical inconsistencies?  I was somewhat concerned
about the hodge-podge quality of Teonaht, but because Teonaht was such a
part of me well before I knew anything about linguistics, I could "rewrite"
some of it as it grew, and I was already committed to its words and its
private "history."  Also, I value some of its grammatical "inconsistencies"
and attribute them to archaisms that have remained intact.

> James -- looking for the easy (no...an easier) way out.
Sorry, no easy ways out!  Same for me and music.  (Can't I just get a
program that will let me off the hook?  You mean I have to put it through a
midi?  Can't I just... can't I just... I HATE performing!  Can't I just have
my cakewalk and eat it?)  Me, I'm interested in the philosophy and
psychology of conlanging, so I guess my next question for you would be...
since you are a composer, why *conlang* as well?  Did the two urges
coincide?  What do you want out of conlanging that is akin to (or not akin
to) an invented language?

Sally Caves
scaves@frontiernet.net
Eskkoat ol ai sendran, rohsan nuehra celyil takrem bomai nakuo.
"My shadow follows me, putting strange, new roses into the world."

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