Re: Perfective or Perfect?

On 18/03/2008, R A Brown <ray@...> wrote:
>
> "...dead bodies of great-hearted heroes" in fact (defunctaque corpora
>  vita /magnanimum heroum...)
>
>
As well as "...pueri innuptaeque puellae" etc.; gosh, once I saw you
continue the line I couldn't stop reciting the rest of the poem to
myself until I reached "...constitit orbis". Clearly that poem has
staying power!

>  > The problem I have lies with "defuncta".
>  >
>  > The word I chose to translate it by the last time round in Cl.
>  > Arithide was "korrākāt", which is the perfect aspect participle of the
>  > verb meaning "to experience, to go through", and the indecision I'm
>  > facing stems from whether that is an accurate translation of
>  > "defuncta", because I couldn't decide whether Vergil intended the word
>  > to be read as "have finished with being alive and are now in a sort of
>  > repose" (which calls for the perfect aspect)
>
>
> Well, they are because at this point phantoms of men, women,
>  great-hearted heroes, boys, unmwed maidens etc flock out like birds
>  which hide in the leaves as evening approaches. so they are clearly in
>  some sort of afterlife - and that would be consistent with what Vergil
>  says in other places (and, indeed, with the general Roman assumption
>  that there was some sort of afterlife).
>
Ooh this gives me another question. I'm not a fluent Latin-speaker,
having only started in the middle of last year with the Teach Yourself
book by Gavin Betts, which, incidentally, introduced me to this great
poem -- can you see I'm in love with it even after nine months? :-) --
and when I read the poem with only for help a vocabulary gloss, a
grammar reference and a few tips on unscrambling the confusing (for a
novice) syntax by Mr. Betts himself, I interpreted those lines as
(from "umbrae ibant tenues..." to "...ante ora parentum":

"the wispy shadows (ghosts) began to move, as did the simulacra ("luce
carentum" gives me such a strong image so hard to translate I shall
just leave it as "lacking light"), [which numbered as] many as the
thousands of birds that hide in the leaves at evenings, or when the
winter rain chases them from the mountains, [as many as the] mothers
and men and bodies of great-hearted heroes done with life (literally),
boys and unarried girls, youths placed upon the funeral pyre before
their parents' eyes (a little idiomatic here)..."

A slightly long paragraph, but the point I was trying to make was, I
interpreted the lines a whole lot differently from what you've just
said! And I'm a little crushed because this means that the Cl. Ar.
translation, of course... :-( I thought the nominative cases used for
the whole long list simply tacked on to "milia avium" as other
yardsticks for comparison of "quam multa". They actually refer to the
different types of "umbrae" that "ibant"? :-( :-(

This is a very important lesson for any would-be translator out there. Haha.

>
>  > or as "went through and
>  > have nothing more to do with being alive" (which calls for the
>  > perfective).
>
>
> Yes, they have been through life and now have nothing more to do with
>  life *here*, so it could be Cl.Arithide perfective.
>
>
>  > Comments/suggestions, anyone? :-) Many thanks.
>
>
> To be honest, I do not think you can have a definitive answer to this
>  without asking Vergil himself - and that poses a problem or two  ;)
>
Unless you were Dante. ;) Then you could see him in Hell.

>  I think you can make out a reasonable case for either aspect. In Book VI
>  of the Aeneid it does appear that Vergil believes reincarnation is
>  possible (at least for some), so one could argue that the Cl.Arithide
>  perfect is more appropriate as the dead must be in some sort of repose
>  if they can be incarnate again.
>
>  There is an interesting note in T.E Page's edition regarding _corpora
>  ... heroum_ :"Not a mere periphrasis = _heroes_, but recalling attention
>  to their heroic build."
>
>  Umm - as _defuncta_ agrees with _corpora_ perhaps the Cl. Arithide
>  perfective is more appropriate as, though their souls may be incarnate
>  again, their heroic bodies presumably have finished with the life *here8
>  and exist only in phantom form.
>
Hmm. This is a good point. I suppose I should probably take the
perfective aspect then. Does anyone out there have an aspect-based
verb system too for their conlang? (Hidden question: and would like to
try translating and sharing too? ;) )

>
>  > (This is a really moving piece, by the way, and anyone who can read
>  > Latin but has not read this summary of Orpheus & Eurydice should
>  > probably give the passage a try.)
>
>
> Vergil is always worth reading IMO   :)
>
Bought the David Ferry Latin-English bilingual book for $28 and found
that the agricultural parts were so difficult. Partly due to
vocabulary unfamiliarity, even when translated.

I admit I started learning Latin largely because I needed to
familiarise myself with the case system to streamline Cl. Ar.'s. :p

>
>  --
>  Ray
>  ==================================
>  http://www.carolandray.plus.com
>  ==================================
>  Frustra fit per plura quod potest
>  fieri per pauciora.
>  [William of Ockham]
>

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